1 [ THIS TEXT IS BEING PROVIDED IN A ROUGH-DRAFT FORMAT. COMMUNICATION ACCESS REALTIME TRANSLATION (CART) IS PROVIDED IN ORDER TO FACILITATE COMMUNICATION ACCESSIBILITY AND MAY NOT BE A TOTALLY VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS. ] >> JUST A COUPLE OF QUICK NOTES BEFORE WE GET STARTED TODAY. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE COMING IN, THERE ARE SOME COOKIES, COFFEE, WATER BACK THERE. THANKS FOR COMING. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE HERE AT AN INTERSECT MEETING FOR THE FIRST TIME, THANK YOU FOR COMING. INTERSECT IS A GROUP THAT FREDRICKSON COMMUNICATIONS STARTED A FEW YEARS AGO AS A WAY TO BRING THE PUBLIC SECTOR AND I.T. PEOPLE TOGETHER TO DISCUSS ISSUES OF COMMON CONCERN, AND ACCESSIBILITY IS A TOPIC OF COMMON CONCERN THAT HAS BROUGHT US TOGETHER. TODAY'S DISCUSSION IS A THIRD AND FINAL IN A SERIES OF THREE ON ACCESSIBILITY THAT WE HAVE HELD, AND THANK YOU TO TANYA BELANGER >> TANYA BELANGER >> BELANGER. I'M SORRY. FOR HELPING TO PUT TOGETHER THE SURVEY THAT MANY OF YOU RESPONDED TO A FEW WEEKS AGO, FOR SECURING CART SERVICES AND ASL INTERPRETER. 2 SO THANKS, TANYA. I WANTED TO REMIND YOU THAT WE ALSO HAVE AN INTERSECT LINKED IN GROUP WHERE YOU CAN CONTINUE TODAY'S CONVERSATION OR START A NEW ONE. SO GO TO LINKED IN, SEARCH FOR FREDRICKSON INTERSECT UNDER GROUPS. SO LOOK FOR FREDRICKSON INTERSECT UNDER GROUPS, AND YOU CAN FIND OUR LINKED IN GROUP THERE AND FEEL FREE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THAT. THIS SESSION IS GEARED TOWARDS YOUR DOCUMENT ACCESSIBILITY QUESTIONS AND INTERESTS. SO FEEL FREE TO ASK QUESTIONS ALONG THE WAY. FINAL REMINDER. DON'T FORGET TO FILL OUT THE SURVEY. MY COLLEAGUE MOLLY SENT OUT ON FRIDAY I THINK THAT HAS SOME TOPICS THAT WE MAY BE INTERESTED IN DISCUSSING. THERE'S A LIST OF SUGGESTIONS THERE. YOU CAN RATE YOUR INTEREST OR RANK YOUR INTEREST IN THOSE SUGGESTIONS, MAKE ANOTHER SUGGESTION FOR A TOPIC, SO PLEASE RESPOND TO THAT SURVEY. ALL RIGHT. SO LET'S GET STARTED. TANYA, TAKE IT AWAY. >> TANYA: THANK YOU, AND I JUST WANT TO SAY WELCOME TO OET, AND I HOPE THAT TODAY PROVIDES SOME USEFUL INFORMATION FOR YOU, AND I ALSO WANT TO SAY THANK YOU 3 FOR FILLING OUT THE SURVEY THAT I SENT. I FOUND THE RESULTS TO BE REALLY HELPFUL IN THINKING ABOUT HOW TO -- HOW FAR THE INTEREST IN ACCESSIBILITY SPANS AND WHAT THE NEEDS ARE, AND ALSO I WAS -- IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME TO SEE HOW MANY PROFESSIONALS FROM CITIES AND COUNTIES ALSO PARTICIPATED IN THIS GROUP, WHICH I WAS AWARE OF THAT WERE IN THE GROUP, BUT I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW BIG THAT AUDIENCE IS. I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR. THE ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS THAT THE STATE LAW AND ALSO THE ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS THAT OET HAS PUBLISHED AS A RESULT OF THAT APPLY TO EXECUTIVE BRANCH AGENCIES. I JUST WANTED TO PUT THAT UP FRONT, SO THAT'S WHERE THEY APPLY TODAY. HOWEVER, OF COURSE, ACCESSIBILITY MATTERS EVERYWHERE, SO IT'S GREAT THAT CITIES, COUNTIES, AND LEGISLATIVE BRANCH. I'VE SEEN THE LEGISLATIVE AND JUDICIAL BRANCH HERE TODAY. SO EVERYBODY IS INTERESTED IN LEARNING HOW THEY CAN BETTER MAKE THE TECHNOLOGY ACCESSIBLE, IN PARTICULAR DOCUMENTS. SO THERE WERE A LOT OF QUESTIONS REGARDING PDF ACCESSIBILITY, AND INITIALLY I THOUGHT I WOULD PROVIDE YOU THE FEEDBACK FROM THE SURVEY, BUT IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR THAT YOU GUYS REALLY WANTED SOME MORE HOW TO OR 4 WHAT TO FOCUS ON, SO I JUST FIGURED WE'D JUST SPEND OUR TIME ON THAT. AND BEFORE WE START, YOU JUST SAID THERE WERE SOME NEW PEOPLE, SO AGAIN CAN WE THROW YOUR HANDS UP IF YOU'RE NEW AND THIS IS YOUR FIRST TIME ON THIS TOPIC DISCUSSION SO WE CAN GET KIND OF A PERCENTAGE IN THE ROOM. A LITTLE HIGHER. MAYBE -- WOW, WOULD YOU SAY 30 PERCENT OF THE ROOM IS NEW TO THE TOPIC? OKAY. ANOTHER EXTRA SIDE NOTE. WE HAVE CART SERVICES HERE TODAY, AND IT'S AMAZING HOW TALENTED YOU GUYS ARE TO BE ABLE TO LISTEN TO EVERYTHING, OUR DISCUSSION, OUR DIALOGUE AND THEN TYPE IT, AND SO WITH THAT IN MIND SO WE CAN GET AN ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT JUST REMEMBER IF YOU ARE SPEAKING TO SAY YOUR NAME FIRST IF YOU'D LIKE AND SPEAK LOUD SO THAT THEY CAN HEAR YOU BETTER. OKAY. AND MY STYLE IS REALLY MORE OF A CASUAL, SO IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS, I THINK IT'S JUST FINE TO ASK, AND BY THE WAY, THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM THAT I TOOK A CLASS LAST WEEK WITH OUR GROUP OF SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS OVER HERE. WE TOOK A CLASS ON PDF ACCESSIBILITY AT THE SCIENCE MUSEUM LAST WEEK. THEY USE ADOBE PRETTY REGULARLY. I REALLY DON'T. I'M MORE OF A PERSON THAT WHEN I WRITE 5 REPORTS I USE WORD. SO WHAT I'M PRESENTING TODAY IS PRETTY MUCH WHAT I'VE LEARNED FROM THE CLASS AND RESEARCHING AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT -- HOW TO BEST PRESENT THE INFORMATION TO YOU GUYS. SO I THOUGHT YOU GUYS CAN BE HERE JUST TO MAKE SURE IF ANYBODY ASKS ANY DETAIL ABOVE AND BEYOND THE ACROBAT QUESTIONS I'M GOING TO DEFER TO YOU. HOW DOES THAT SOUND? >> WE CAN TRY. >> TANYA: ONE MORE QUESTION. I WANTED TO GAUGE THE ATTENDANCE. HOW MANY ARE FROM STATE AGENCIES EXECUTIVE BRANCH? WOW. OKAY. SO WE HAVE MORE THAN HALF THE ROOM I WOULD SAY FROM EXECUTIVE BRANCH. AND THEN FROM ALL ELSE OTHER PLACES IS THE OTHER HALF. OKAY. BEFORE WE EVEN START, I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW, TOO, THAT I DO WORK WITH THE TECHNOLOGY ACCESSIBILITY PROJECT, AND WE ARE ABOUT TO START HAVING TRAININGS RIGHT AFTER MARCH. FROM PRETTY MUCH APRIL, MAY, JUNE TIME FRAME. WE HAVE SEVERAL DIFFERENT TYPES OF TRAINING SET UP. 6 WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TRAINING ON THIS CLASS. TODAY IS NOT A TRAINING BUT IT GETS CLOSE. IT'S LIKE A SEMINAR STYLE. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT I KNOW AND OF COURSE THERE'S MORE DETAILS BEHIND THAT. SO I GUESS I WILL HAVE SOME TRAINING FOR EXECUTIVE BRANCH WHO HAVE TO COMPLY WITH IT, BUT THERE'S OTHER PLACES WHERE YOU CAN GET THE TRAINING ON IT. IN THE END I HAVE A REFERENCE ON THE DOCUMENT THAT I FIND TO BE REALLY HELPFUL FROM ADOBE THAT GETS INTO EVEN MORE DETAILS ON THIS. SO THE LAST TWO SESSIONS REMEMBER IN AUGUST RENA ROGERS WAS HERE FROM THE PROJECT TALKING ABOUT ACCESSIBILITY, KIND OF WHAT IT IS AND WHY IT'S IMPORTANT, A HIGH-LEVEL OVERVIEW. AND THEN I WAS HERE IN NOVEMBER. CAN EVERYBODY HEAR ME GOOD? THIS IS WORKING WELL? OKAY. IN NOVEMBER WE REALLY GOT INTO TALKING ABOUT DOCUMENT ACCESSIBILITY WITH WORD DOCUMENTS. I REALLY CALL IT THE PRINCIPLES OF ACCESSIBILITY. SO FOR THOSE WHO WEREN'T HERE IN NOVEMBER, MAYBE YOU LOOKED AT THE RESOURCES ON INTERSECT WEB SITE. I'M PRETTY SURE THEY POSTED ON THEIR WEB SITE, SO IF YOU 7 HAVEN'T, YOU'LL PROBABLY WANT TO GO BACK AND ACCESS THEM. IF NOT YOU CAN ALSO CONTACT ME. BUT TODAY WE ARE REALLY BUILDING OFF THAT SO IF YOU DON'T -- IF YOU DON'T ALREADY USE STYLES AND OTHER TYPES OF FEATURES LIKE ALT TEXT AND SOME OTHER THINGS THAT RELATE TO ACCESSIBILITY, I WASN'T GOING TO GO OVER THAT SO MUCH. IT'S KIND OF INHERENT IN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. YOU'LL RECOGNIZE IT BUT IF YOU NEED MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THAT LIKE I SAID YOU'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO PICK IT UP AFTERWARDS OR ASK QUESTIONS. SO WE HAVE UNTIL FOUR O'CLOCK, RIGHT? SO LET'S GO AHEAD AND GET STARTED. SO FOR OUR AGENDA BASICALLY THESE ARE THE CORE AREAS WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON. WRITE CLARITY ON THE TERMS AND PATHWAYS TO GETTING TO PDF. ACCESSIBILITY IN THE PDF PRODUCTION PROCESS, THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK AND ALL THIS IS WITHIN ACROBAT PRO. IT'S 9 BUT I ALSO HAVE X PRO. DISCLAIMER. I ONLY HAVE X BUT THE INSTRUCTIONS IN THE ADOBE PACKET ARE IN NINE, SO IT'S REALLY PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THING, SO MY PICTURES MIGHT SAY ADOBE TEN OR SOMETHING LIKE 8 THAT BUT BASICALLY THEY'RE THE SAME THING BUT THE INSTRUCTIONS SOMETIMES WILL SAY IF YOU CLICK HERE, CLICK THIS, IT WILL BE FROM NINE. BUT I THINK THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. JUST A SIDE NOTE TO BE WARY OF, BUT IN GENERAL THE CONCEPTS ARE THE SAME. SO WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK WHICH IS IN ADOBE ACROBAT AND LANGUAGE AND DOCUMENT STRUCTURE. THEN WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT STRUCTURE AND LOGICAL READING ORDER. THERE'S A TOOL I FOUND IT TO BE PRETTY MUCH TO BE THE GO TO TOOL I THINK IS THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THE ACCESSIBILITY AND MAKE ANY CHANGES THAT YOU NEED. YOU CAN DO THE LOGICAL READING ORDER, APPLYING THE ALTERNATIVE TEXT. I'LL SHOW YOU SOME EXAMPLES. THEN THE TAKES PANEL, FOCUS ON LINKS, BOOKMARKS AND THEN SECURITY. AND AS A RESULT OF THE CLASS THAT I TOOK LAST WEEK, THEY HAD SOME EXTRA TIME WE SPENT. THERE WERE QUESTIONS AROUND WHAT DO YOU DO WITH IN DESIGN TO ACCESSIBILITY, SO WHAT I EXTRACTED FROM THAT LESSON AND BROUGHT HERE IS MORE SO WHAT TO FOCUS ON WITHIN DESIGN AND WHAT NOT TO. I THINK THAT'S KIND OF WHAT YOU NEED TO WORRY ABOUT. 9 AND THEN A LITTLE BIT ON FORMS. AND THEN I'VE GOT A SLIDE OF UPCOMING TRAININGS AND INFORMATION SESSIONS. OKAY? SOUND GOOD? IT'S KIND OF A LOT. IF WE GO THROUGH THINGS A LITTLE FASTER JUST BECAUSE OF TIME, I DID MAKE SCREEN SHOTS SO YOU GUYS CAN USE THEM LATER, SO THAT WAS MY INTENT ON THAT. SO LET'S JUST START OFF WITH PDF ACCESSIBILITY TERMS AND PATHWAYS I BASICALLY CALL IT. SO BASICALLY THERE'S STRUCTURED AND UNSTRUCTURED. A STRUCTURED DOCUMENT HAS NAVIGATIONAL UNDERLYING STRUCTURE INDICATING THE OUTLINE AND THE HEADING LEVELS AND DESCRIPTIONS OF NONTEXT ELEMENTS, AND YOU DO THAT USING STYLES AND DIFFERENT TYPES OF TAGS. AND UNSTRUCTURED BASICALLY IS AN INACCESSIBLE DOCUMENT. IT HAS NO WAY TO DO ANY KIND OF NAVIGATION, AND SO IT DOESN'T HAVE STYLES OR TAGS OR ANY TYPE OF ELEMENTS THAT WE'RE GOING TO LEARN TO DO. OKAY. AND THEN SOME OF THE PATHWAYS YOU CAN GET TO PDF IS BY SCANNING, AND THEN IT TURNS INTO A PDF. THAT COMES OUT AS AN IMAGE, AND THE CHARACTERS AREN'T RECOGNIZED, AND THEN YOU'LL HAVE TO PERFORM OCR, OPTICAL CHARACTER RECOGNITION, AND THEN YOU ALSO HAVE TO 10 APPLY THE STRUCTURE TO THAT AS WELL IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE ACCESSIBLE. AND THEN YOU HAVE ANOTHER WAY IS THE TYPICAL YOU'RE WORKING IN WORD, AND YOU FILE SAVE AS PDF, AND IN THAT CASE IT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE EITHER. SO BECAUSE FOR SOME REASON IT DOESN'T TRANSFER. THE UNDERLYING STRUCTURE DOESN'T TRANSFER. SAME GOES AS WITH XPS. IF YOU NOTICE NOW MICROSOFT HAS FILE SAVE AS XPS. IT'S LIKE MICROSOFT'S VERSION OF PDF FILE. IT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE AT ALL SO JUST DON'T EVEN I GUESS WASTE YOUR TIME GOING THAT ROUTE. WE'VE TRIED IT, AND IT JUST DOESN'T WORK. AND THEN OF COURSE YOU CAN SAVE THE PDF IN ACROBAT, AND IF YOU DO THAT ACROBAT -- AND IF YOU DO THAT YOU APPLY THE ACCESSIBILITY AND CHECK FOR IT AND IT CAN BE ACCESSIBLE THEN. OKAY. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON TODAY. SO AS A PREREQUISITE I HAVE ACROBAT PRO VERSION, SO YOU REALLY HAVE TO HAVE THAT. I'VE GOT A SLIDE REAL QUICK HERE FOR THE PDF PRODUCTION PROCESS. WE DON'T REALLY NEED TO FOCUS ON IT SO MUCH RIGHT NOW IN GETTING THAT PROCESS IN OUR HEAD. I MORE SO MADE THE SLIDE FOR YOU -- WE'RE GOING TO TALK 11 ABOUT PARTS OF IT, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE SO MUCH THAT EXACT ORDER THE WAY THAT I'VE LAID OUT THE PRESENTATION. BUT I WANTED THAT PROCESS TO BE THERE FOR YOU SO THAT IF YOU'RE OUT WORKING ON A DOCUMENT, YOU KNOW CAN I DO STEP ONE AND THEN I NEED TO DO THIS AND THEN I NEED TO DO THAT. OKAY. I CAN GO THROUGH IT REAL QUICK. HOW ABOUT IF I JUST GO THROUGH THE STEPS. SO FIRST YOU WOULD OPEN THE PDF IN ACROBAT PRO. RUN THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK. THERE'S A FEATURE FOR THAT, AND I'LL SHOW YOU IT. THEN YOU'LL LOOK AT THE SUMMARY REPORT. IT'S GOING TO TELL YOU WHETHER THE DOCUMENT IS ACCESSIBLE OR NOT. IF YOU APPLIED ALL THE ACCESSIBILITY IN SAY LIKE THE WORD DOCUMENT AND IT CONVERTED IT OVER, USUALLY THE UNDERLYING STRUCTURE WILL COME OVER. YES, QUESTION, JED. >> JED: IS THE ACCESSIBILITY CHECK, IS THAT ONLY AVAILABLE IN THE PRO VERSION? I'M WONDERING IF I HAVE A NUMBER OF STAFF THAT ARE GOING TO NEED ACROBAT. >> JAMIE. >> THIS IS JAMIE SPEAKING. 12 THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, JED, IS THAT THERE IS THE ACCESSIBILITY CHECKER IN THE NONPRO VERSION, BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THEY CANNOT MODIFY THE ACCESSIBILITY FEATURES. >> JED: OKAY >> SO THEY CAN KNOW THAT THERE'S A PROBLEM >> BUT THEY CAN'T FIX THEM >> BUT THEY CAN'T FIX IT. AND FOR THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY, THERE IS FREE SOFTWARE OUT THERE THAT WILL DO THE SAME THING, SO YOU'RE BETTER OFF GETTING THEM ALL PRO'S WHO NEED -- OR THINKING OF ANOTHER WORK AROUND. >> JED: THANK YOU. >> TANYA: ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ON THAT ONE? DID WE HAVE ANY OTHER COMMENTS? >> SOUNDED REAL GOOD. >> YEAH, JED. >> JED: IF YOU DON'T HAVE ACROBAT INSTALLED AT ALL BUT YOU HAVE A FULL COPY OF OFFICE 2007 OR TEN AND YOU CHOOSE TO CREATE PDF WITHIN THAT, IS IT GOING TO BRING EVERYTHING OVER ASSUMING YOU DID EVERYTHING RIGHT IN WORD? >> IT SHOULD BUT WE DON'T USE WORD SO I CAN'T -- >> TANYA: LET ME CLARIFY. DID YOU SAY IF YOU SAVE IT AS A PDF WITHIN WORD OR IF YOU APPLY THE STRUCTURE 13 WITHIN WORD AND THEN SEND IT TO SOMEONE WHO DOES HAVE PRO WHO THEN CAN OPEN IT AND DO THAT? >> I'M THINKING FOR STAFF THAT ARE CREATING DOCUMENTS CORRECTLY, THEY'VE BEEN TRAINED AND KNOW HOW TO DO IT NOW, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A COPY OF ACROBAT, I MAY BE WRONG BUT I THINK EVEN WITHIN WORD IF YOU DON'T HAVE ACROBAT INSTALLED THERE'S A CREATE PDF OPTION IN THERE. IF YOU USE THAT, WILL IT CREATE A PROPERLY FORMATTED PDF. YOU OF COURSE CAN'T CHECK IT OR ANYTHING BUT AT LEAST GET IT STARTED AND THEN I'M THINKING THEY'LL SEND IT TO SOMEONE ELSE TO CHECK IT OUT AND EVERYTHING. >> TANYA: JED, WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> JED: I'M THINKING IT DOES, BUT I'M NOT SURE. >> TANYA: JED KNOWS. >> I KNOW ON TEN FOR 2010 THEY'RE SAYING -- YEAH, IT'S GOING TO HAVE ALL THE STUFF. THEY MADE IT SOUND LIKE IT'S GOING TO HAVE MOST OF THE STUFF THAT ACROBAT DOES. >> TANYA: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAVE IT AS PDF WITHIN WORD AND IT ACTUALLY CARRIES IN THE STRUCTURE. SOME ELEMENTS COME OVER LIKE -- >> I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T HEAR. >> SOME ELEMENTS WOULD STAY LIKE THE LINKS WOULD STAY AND THEY WOULD BE ACTIVE BUT I DON'T KNOW. FROM WHAT I'VE LEARNED AND I ALSO ATTENDED A WEBINAR 14 TODAY AND I'LL SHARE THAT RESOURCE WITH YOU GUYS TOO AFTER. YOU HAVE TO GET A SCHOLARSHIP LIKE I DID TO PAY FOR IT, BUT I'LL SHARE THAT AFTER, A REALLY GOOD WEBINAR, A FOUR-PART SERIES I'M IN RIGHT NOW, BUT SHE WOULD KNOW IF ANYBODY. I CAN ASK THE QUESTION. I'LL TAKE IT DOWN. OKAY. AND JEN. >> THIS IS JENNIFER SMITH FROM DHS. IF YOU USE THE CONVERT TO PDF VERSION IN WORD, IT WILL WORK BUT THERE'S CERTAIN SEGMENTS IF YOU CONVERT FROM THE STANDARD SETTING THAT'S NOT GOING TO -- >> YOU'LL NEED SPEAK UP A LOT FOR ME. >> THERE'S ACTUALLY SPECIFIC SEGMENTS THAT YOU NEED TO CHANGE IN STANDARD VERSION OF CONVERSION. IT WILL ACTUALLY MAKE IT A WORKABLE PDF THAT SOMEONE ELSE CAN USE OR TAG >> TANYA: DID YOU SAY WHAT VERSION? 2010? >> YEAH, 2010 AND 2007 >> YOU HAVE TO TWEAK THE SETTING. >> RIGHT, RIGHT. >> IS THAT A SIMILAR PROCESS TO HOW YOU WOULD SET UP A 15 CUSTOMER -- (CAN'T HEAR) BECAUSE I KNOW YOU HAVE TO DO THAT IN WORD ANYWAY TO CHOOSE WHAT -- >> YEAH, YOU CAN SET -- WHEN YOU'RE SETTING UP YOUR STANDARDS -- THE STANDARD WAY YOU WANT TO CONVERT A PDF YOU CAN SET UP A CUSTOM PDF THAT EVERY TIME YOU GO -- (CAN'T HEAR) >> EXCUSE ME. CAN EVERYBODY SPEAK UP SO THE REST OF US CAN HEAR. THANK YOU. >> TANYA: THANK YOU. SO -- OKAY. SO WE'LL DO -- GET THAT CLARIFICATION AND SEND IT OFF TO THE GROUP. HOW DOES THAT SOUND? I'LL GET YOUR RESPONSE BECAUSE IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO HEAR, TOO, AND I'LL CHECK IN WITH THE EXPERTS THAT I'M DOING THE WEBINAR WITH RIGHT NOW AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY AND RESPOND BACK TO THE GROUP. HOW DOES THAT SOUND? GOOD? OKAY. SO LET'S JUST MOVE BACK THROUGH SO THE PROCESS; RIGHT? SO YOU WOULD DO THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK. THERE'S A SUMMARY REPORT THAT'S GOING TO TELL YOU BASICALLY IS THERE STRUCTURE, YES OR NO. 16 IF THERE IS NO STRUCTURE, THEN YOU'LL NEED TO START APPLYING IT WITHIN, BUT IF YOU MADE THE STRUCTURE WITHIN WORD USING STYLES AND WHATNOT, IT WILL TRANSFER OVER, AND SO YOU'LL BE FINE. AND THEN IF YOU DIDN'T MAKE THE LANGUAGE ENGLISH, THEN YOU NEED TO TURN THAT ON AND ALSO WE'LL GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS, RIGHT? SO YOU SAVE IT AND THEN GO BACK AND USE WHAT I THINK IS MOST USEFUL IS THIS TURO TOOL AND WITH THAT YOU CAN APPLY STRUCTURE, MOVE THE LOGICAL READING ORDER AROUND AND ADD ALT TEXT TO IMAGES. THERE'S A VARIETY OF THINGS YOU CAN DO WITH THAT TOOL. AND THEN YOU RUN THE FULL CHECK AGAIN, CHECK YOUR SUMMARY REPORT. IT SHOULD COME UP OKAY IF YOU'VE DONE EVERYTHING AND SAVE IT AGAIN, AND THEN YOU CAN GO AHEAD AND FIX THE READING ORDER IF YOU NEED TO SOME MORE WHICH WOULD BE IN THE READING ORDER PANEL, ADD DESCRIPTIONS TO LINKS USING THE TOOL TIPS. MAKE SURE THE BOOKMARKS ARE THERE AND IN ORDER. AND THEN LAST BUT NOT LEAST THE INSTRUCTOR IN OUR PDF ACCESSIBILITY CLASS REALLY EMPHASIZED THIS, NOT TO SAVE IT UNTIL YOU'RE DONE. WHY DID SHE SAY THAT AGAIN? >> SECURITY, NOT TO PUT SECURITY ON IT 17 >> THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN'T UNDO >> YOU CAN'T UNDO LIKE USING THE TURO TOOL. ONCE YOU CORRECT IN THE TURO TOOL, YOU CAN'T UNDO THAT, SO YOU WANT TO SAVE A LOT AS YOU'RE GOING THROUGH THIS BECAUSE ONCE YOU USE THE TURO TOOL WHATEVER YOU'VE DONE IN THAT YOU CAN'T UNDO. >> YOU CAN REVERT BACK BUT THAT'S WHY ALONA IS SAYING SAVE, SAVE, SAVE. >> TANYA: AND THEN AT THE END YOU WOULD THEN APPLY THE SECURITY SETTINGS AND THERE'S ONE PART ABOUT IT THAT YOU NEED TO CHECK THE BOX TO ENABLE SCREEN READER TO ACCESS IT AND I'LL SHOW YOU. I HAVE A SCREEN SHOT OF THAT. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT THEN, THE SECURITY WILL OVERRIDE ANY ACCESSIBILITY IN THE DOCUMENT, AND THE PERSON WHO USES A SCREEN READER WON'T EVEN BE ABLE TO ACCESS IT EVEN IF YOU MADE IT ACCESSIBLE. OKAY. >> WOULD YOU REPEAT THE LAST PART. >> TANYA: ABOUT SECURITY? OKAY. THE DEAL WITH SECURITY IS THAT YOU WANT TO DO IT AT THE END, AND YOU NEED TO CHECK A CERTAIN BOX THAT -- AND I'LL SHOW YOU, THAT SAYS ENABLE IT FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES OR SCREEN READER USERS TO ACCESS A 18 DOCUMENT. IF YOU DON'T CHECK THAT BOX, ALL THE WORK YOU DID AROUND ACCESSIBILITY AND EVEN THOUGH IT'S A REALLY ACCESSIBLE DOCUMENT, SECURITY WILL OVERRIDE IT, AND THE PERSON USING A SCREEN READER OR ANY KIND OF ASSISTIVE DEVICE WON'T BE ABLE TO THEN ACCESS IT. JED. >> JED: THAT'S ONLY LIKE IF YOU'RE APPLYING SOME KIND OF SECURITY SETTINGS, RIGHT? LIKE IF YOU'RE NOT ALLOWING COPYING AND PASTING OR NOT ALLOWING PRINTING, RIGHT? >> TANYA: I GUESS. I GUESS YOU'LL HAVE TO CHECK. WE CAN TRY IT, YOU KNOW, IN A WORD DOCUMENT, BUT I THINK SO. IF YOU DON'T HAVE SECURITY ON, THEN IT SHOULD BE ACCESSIBLE. >> BUT TANYA, WASN'T THERE SOMETHING WITHIN THE SECURITY WINDOW THAT SHE TOLD US ABOUT THAT IF WE DIDN'T DO THE SECURITY, THEN IT ALSO WOULD CAUSE ISSUES? THERE'S SOME PRIMARY FUNCTION WITHIN THE SECURITY THAT YOU HAVE TO CHECK, AND I DON'T HAVE MY NOTES. >> TANYA: YEAH, AND I DO -- AND I ALSO HAVE THE RESOURCE, AND I DID THE RESOURCE FROM ADOBE THAT HAS THE ANSWERS ON THAT, DETAILS, AND MAYBE THEY TALK ABOUT IT 19 SO MUCH. BUT I WENT OFF WHAT I LEARNED, AND I ALSO HAVE THAT ADOBE DOCUMENT AND I HAVE THAT LINK FOR YOU GUYS HERE TOO, AND IF YOU HAVE THOSE EXTRA QUESTIONS, YOU CAN JUST GO THERE. BUT I WENT -- WHAT I'M SHOWING ON THE SLIDE RELATED TO SECURITY IS WHAT I REMEMBER FROM OUR CLASS AND WHAT I READ FROM THE ADOBE INSTRUCTIONS. SO LIKE I SAID, I DON'T USE ADOBE THAT MUCH, BUT I'VE READ ALL THE RESOURCES THAT ARE OUT THERE RELATED TO THIS, AND I TOOK THE CLASS ON IT, SO I'M JUST SHARING WITH YOU GUYS WHAT I HAVE, AND THERE'S GOING TO BE MORE CLASSES WHERE YOU CAN ASK EVEN MORE DETAILS. ALL RIGHT. SO LET'S GO AHEAD AND MOVE ON AND TALK ABOUT THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK. OKAY. SO WITHIN ACROBAT PRO AND REMEMBER I'M TALKING ABOUT NINE. THERE'S THE QUICK CHECK AND THE FULL CHECK, OKAY, SO REALLY USE THE FULL CHECK TO VIEW THE SUMMARY REPORT. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THAT IN A SECOND, AND THE FOCUS IS REALLY ON STRUCTURE AND TAGS AND ALSO LANGUAGE. SO IN THE SUMMARY REPORT YOU'LL FIND WHETHER UNDER STRUCTURE AND TAGS IT WILL LET YOU KNOW WHETHER THERE IS -- YOUR DOCUMENT HAS STRUCTURE OR NOT. 20 AND FOR THE LANGUAGE IT WILL LET YOU KNOW IF IT HAS A LANGUAGE APPLIED OR NOT. IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LANGUAGE, WHEN YOU'RE USING ACCESSIBILITY CHECKER, YOU NEED TO HAVE A LANGUAGE ESTABLISHED BECAUSE WHOEVER IS USING ASSISTIVE DEVICE THAT NEEDS TO VERBALLY SAY WHAT THE TEXT IS, IT NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT LANGUAGE TO SAY IT IN, RIGHT? THAT MAKES SENSE. ON THE SLIDE HERE YOU CAN USE IT FOR YOUR OWN PURPOSES IN THE FUTURE BUT BASICALLY IT TELLS YOU HOW TO GET TO CHANGING THE LANGUAGE. YOU WOULD GO INTO THE DOCUMENT PROPERTIES UNDER THE ADVANCED TAB, AND THEN YOU GO DOWN TO THE LANGUAGE AND CLICK ENGLISH. THAT'S IT. OKAY? PRETTY SIMPLE. AND THEN YOU ALSO WANT TO CHECK UNDER THE SAME DOCUMENT PROPERTIES. YOU LOOK IN THE DESCRIPTION AND YOU CAN SEE HERE IF IT'S TAGGED PDF, AND IT WILL SAY YES OR NO. OKAY? PRETTY SIMPLE. SO LET'S MOVE ON AND TALK ABOUT STRUCTURE AND LOGICAL READING ORDER. ACTUALLY LET ME SHOW YOU SOMETHING REAL QUICK. BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO THAT, I'LL JUST SHOW YOU IN A 21 DOCUMENT THAT I HAVE. HERE, OKAY. SO WE JUST WERE LOOKING AT THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK. SEE THIS CHECK BOX RIGHT HERE? THAT'S THE QUICK CHECK, SO IT SAYS THE QUICK CHECK IS COMPLETE, AND IT'S TELLING ME THAT I HAVE NO ACCESSIBILITY PROBLEMS, BUT, YOU KNOW, I'D BE VERY WARY BECAUSE THE QUICK CHECK CAN HAPPEN, AND THERE STILL CAN BE ACCESSIBILITY PROBLEMS, SO THAT'S WHY I DON'T EVEN GO OFF THAT ONE. BUT THE FULL CHECK, WHICH IS THIS ONE RIGHT HERE WITH THE TWO CHECKS, THIS IS ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK, SO YOU SEE IT'S GOING TO CHECK FOR WHETHER THERE'S ALTERNATIVE DESCRIPTIONS. IT'S GOING TO SEE IF THE TEXT LANGUAGE IS SPECIFIED, RELIABLE CHARACTER ENCODING IS PROVIDED. ALL CONTENT CONTAINED IN THE DOCUMENT STRUCTURE. ALL FORM FIELDS HAVE DESCRIPTIONS. TAB ORDER IS CONSISTENT WITH THE STRUCTURE ORDER AND LISTEN TABLE STRUCTURE IS CORRECT. IT'S GOING TO CHECK FOR ALL THAT STUFF WITHIN YOUR DOCUMENT SO IF YOU HAVE THEM OR IF YOU DON'T, FINE, BUT IF YOU HAVE IT, YOU'RE GOOD. AND IN THIS CASE WHAT I DID WAS I JUST TOOK ONE OF MY REGULAR WORD DOCUMENTS FROM A MEETING NOT THAT I ALREADY 22 APPLIED STYLE TO IN WORD, AND I SAVED IT IN ACROBAT. AND THEN I DID MY ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK AND IT CAME OUT FINE, SO IT WAS GOOD TO GO. YES, QUESTION. >> THIS IS DIANA, AND WE COMBINE A LOT OF DIFFERENT FILES, WORD, PDF, EXCEL, JPEG. HOW IS THAT GOING TO AFFECT ACCESSIBILITY? >> TANYA: DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANSWERS FOR THAT? >> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO IT IN THE PDF FILE WHEN YOU'RE COMBINING ALL OF THEM LIKE THAT. >> IN ACROBAT? >> YES. >> SO YOU WOULD PUT THEM ALL INTO ACROBAT AND THEN MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE WITHIN ACROBAT. AND YOU CAN DO IT. YOU'LL SEE ESPECIALLY WITH THAT TURO ` TOOL. I MEAN I THINK THAT WOULD HELP YOU. >> THIS IS JAMIE. TURO TOOL MEANS TOUCH UP READING ORDER. >> OKAY. SO EVEN THOUGH IT'S AN EXCEL FILE AND JPEG FILE THAT WILL BE OKAY? IT'S USUALLY A MAP OR A PICTURE. >> THEN YOU HAVE TO PUT IT IN ALT PEG ON THE MAP AND TELL IT WHAT IT IS AND IF IT'S TEXT IN THAT THEN YOU HAVE TO DESCRIBE ALL THE TEXT THAT'S IN IT 23 >> TANYA: OR MAYBE THERE'S A DIFFERENT WAY OF GOING ABOUT IT. >> MAYBE CAN TALK TO YOU MORE AFTER. >> SURE (CAN'T HEAR) >> TANYA: I'M HAVING A HARD TIME WITH MY SCREEN HERE. THERE WE GO. START CHECKING, I'M JUST GOING TO DO THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK JUST TO SHOW YOU. OKAY. THE CHECKER FOUND PROBLEMS WHICH MAY PREVENT THE DOCUMENT FROM BEING FULLY ACCESSIBLE. PLEASE SEE THE REPORT. AND THEN OUT POPS MY ACCESSIBILITY CORD IN THIS NAVIGATION PANES ARE ON THE SIDE. AND THEN I WANT TO LOOK AT THE SUMMARY. SO IT'S TELLING ME THE PROBLEMS. ONE ELEMENT WITH ALTERNATIVE TEXT BUT NO PAGE CONTENT. I'M GUESSING IT'S THIS NORTH STAR IMAGE THAT I COPIED AND PASTED OFF THE WEB SITE. IT'S ALSO TELLING ME THAT ALL THE TEXT IN THIS DOCUMENT LACKS A LANGUAGE SPECIFICATION. THIS IS GREAT. SO MAYBE I CAN QUICKLY, FILE, PROPERTIES, ADVANCED, LANGUAGE, AND MAKE IT ENGLISH. AND THREE PAGES WITH TAB ORDER THAT MAY BE INCONSISTENT 24 WITH STRUCTURE ORDER. SO I ACTUALLY HAVE TWO SET UP SO I HADN'T EVEN WORKED ON THIS ONE. THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE TO OPEN THIS DOCUMENT. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU SEE HOW THAT SUMMARY REPORT WITHIN THE ACCESSIBILITY FULL CHECK CAN REALLY HELP YOU IN NARROWING ON WHAT YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON. I LIKE THAT. THAT'S PRETTY NICE. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. SO WE TALKED ABOUT THE FULL CHECK. I GAVE YOU A LITTLE EXAMPLE OF HOW TO USE THE FULL CHECK, AND THEN WE'LL MOVE ON AND TALK ABOUT STRUCTURE AND LOGICAL READING ORDER. OKAY. SO WITH LOGICAL READING ORDER, TAGGING IS ESSENTIAL FOR PDF ACCESSIBILITY. IT GIVES THAT NAVIGATION ABILITY FOR PEOPLE WHO USE ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO NAVIGATE ANYTHING THE WAY THAT A VISUAL PERSON WOULD SCAN AND SCREEN THE DIFFERENT LEVELS WITHIN THE CONTENT. SO ALSO THE TAGGING PROVIDES HOOKS FOR ALTERNATIVE TEXT DESCRIPTIONS WHENEVER THERE'S NONTEXT ELEMENTS IN THE DOCUMENT. SO THERE'S A VARIETY OF WAYS YOU CAN CHECK TO SEE IF THE 25 PDF IS TAGGED. YOU CAN VIEW IT WITHIN DOCUMENT PROPERTIES, AND I GIVE YOU SOME INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO GET THERE, THE STEPS. YOU CAN DO IT BY REVEALING IT IN THE TAGS PANEL, AND YOU PULL UP THE PANEL AND VIEW THE TAGS AND YOU CAN SEE THE STRUCTURE IN THAT WAY AS A TREE KIND OF SET UP, AND THEN THERE'S THE TOUCH UP READING ORDER TOOL. AND AN UNTAGGED DOCUMENT IF YOU HAVE AN UNTAGGED DOCUMENT, IT WILL APPEAR NOT TO HAVE CHANGED, BUT IF YOU HAVE A TAGGED DOCUMENT ALREADY, THEN IT WILL -- YOU CAN TELL IT HAD A CHANGE BECAUSE THEY'VE GRAYED OUT THE BOXES. IF THEY WEREN'T ACCESSIBLE, THEN THEY WOULD BE -- I'LL SHOW YOU. THEY'RE FADED OUT BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY IN THERE. SO A QUICK BIT ABOUT THE TURO TOOL. I THINK IT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO DETERMINE IF THE PDF HAS BEEN PROPERLY TAGGED. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? DO YOU LIKE THE TURO TOOL? WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT PEOPLE USE THE TURO TOOL FIRST? >> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY FIRST? >> TANYA: I MEAN I GUESS YOU WOULD CHECK IN A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS JUST TO SEE. BUT WOULD YOU SAY THAT -- IN MY OPINION I THOUGHT THE TURO TOOL WAS 26 MORE -- THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO WORK WITH IT. WHAT DID -- JUST WONDERING IF YOU GUYS HAD ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT. >> I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY THOROUGH, RIGHT. >> TANYA: OKAY. >> AND DEFINITELY I'D RECOMMEND IT, AND THE INSTRUCTOR HAD DONE AS WELL. >> TANYA: WHAT ABOUT YOU, JEN? >> THIS IS JENNIFER SMITH. SO I THINK -- LOUDER. THANKS A LOT. WHEN YOU ADD TAGS TO A DOCUMENT, NO DOCUMENT IS GOING TO BE PERFECT. NO PDF IS GOING TO BE PERFECT, SO THIS TOUCH UP READING ORDER TOOL IS PRETTY MUCH YOUR FUNDAMENTAL TOOL YOU'RE GOING TO USE AND WHAT IT IS IT GIVES YOU A PAGE AND ELEMENTS ON THE PAGE WOULD BE NUMBERED LIKE ONE, TWO, THREE, AND YOU'LL LOOK AT THE DOCUMENT AND SAY ACTUALLY THOUGH THE STRUCTURE OF THE DOCUMENT SAYS ONE, TWO, THREE, WHAT I REALLY WANT HERE IS SAY ONE, THREE, TWO. SO YOU USE THIS TOUCH UP READING ORDER TOOL SO SELECT WHAT ORDER YOU WANT. YOU CAN CHANGE IT AROUND. THERE'S EVEN A LIST FUNCTION WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE ORDER OF EVERYTHING ON THE PAGE AND JUST DRAG AND DROP. 27 IT'S REALLY EASY, SIMPLE TO LEARN AND PROBABLY YOUR FUNDAMENTAL TOOL YOU'RE GOING TO USE. >> THAT WAS THE TOOL TOO THAT SHE SHOWED IT TO US, AND SHE HAD PURPOSEFUL OVERLAPPED SOME TEXT, SO IT HAD SOME TEXT THAT REALLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN A PART OF THE TEXT OF THE BOX ABOVE, AND YOU CAN CORRECT THAT, SO IF SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO SKIM IT AND JUST READING THE HEADERS, THE HEADER MIGHT NOT HAVE CAUGHT THE CORRECT TEXT, SO YOU CAN CLEAN THE TEXT UP FROM -- >> TANYA: AND REALLY SEGMENT AND MAKE SURE THE TEXT THAT IS PART OF ONE SECTION STAYS WITH THAT SECTION. LIKE YOU SAID, CLEAN IT UP AND MAKE SURE THOSE LINES ARE DEFINED AND NOT CONTEXT FLOWING FROM ONE SECTION INTO ANOTHER. WHICH VISUALLY IT NEVER LOOKS THAT WAY BUT IT SHOWS YOU, AND INTERESTINGLY IT SHOWS YOU IN A NICE VISUAL WAY WITH THE TOOL HOW IT DOESN'T LINE UP. AND I'LL SHOW YOU THAT, OKAY, SO GREAT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR COMMENTS. IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU. WE RECENTLY TRAINED PEOPLE IN HERE TO HELP WITH US. OKAY. SO LIKE I SAID, THE EASIEST WAY TO DETERMINE IF PDF IS PROPERLY TAGGED IS TO USE THE TOUCH UP READING ORDER TOOL. 28 WITH THE TOOL YOU CAN ADD ALT TEXT TO IMAGES. IT'S KIND OF LIKE IF THEY'RE THERE OR THEY'RE NOT THERE. YOU CAN ALSO CHANGE THE ORDER. SOMETIMES FOR SOME REASONS ESPECIALLY IF IT'S SOME KIND OF ADVERTISEMENT, THE PICTURE WILL COME UP FIRST OR LAST WHEN IT'S IN THE MIDDLE, SO YOU CAN REESTABLISH THAT READING ORDER SO THAT IT IS HOW YOU INTENDED IT TO BE. YOU CAN REPAIR STRUCTURE AND SHOW THE READING ORDER THEN AGAIN TOO. SO THERE'S ONE VERY BIG CAUTION WHICH WAS TO BE MINDFUL WITH THE TURO TOOL. OUR EXPERTS HAVE ALREADY REMINDED US OF THAT, AND THE PROBLEM IS ONCE YOU MAKE CHANGES AND SAVE WITHIN THE TURO, YOU CAN'T GO BACK AND UNDO. SO THAT'S WHY WHEN I HAD THAT SLIDE THAT TALKED ABOUT THE PDF PRODUCTION PROCESS, THERE WERE STEPS IN THERE THAT SAID SAVE AND REVERT AFTER YOU COMPLETE A KIND OF BIG ACTIVITY SO TO SPEAK BECAUSE IF YOU GO IN, YOU SHOULD REALLY SAVE BEFORE YOU STARTING TO USE A TURO TOOL BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T AND YOU GO TO USE THE TURO TOOL AND YOU MAKE CHANGES AND YOU SAVE IT BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T MEAN TO, THEN YOU HAVE TO START OVER FROM SCRATCH AGAIN. SO I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY A GOOD TIP. OKAY. 29 AND THEN OF COURSE WHEN YOU'RE DONE AFTER DOING ALL YOUR WORK WITHIN YOUR ACCESSIBILITY RELATED WORK AFTER USING THE TURO TOOL GO AHEAD AND DO ANOTHER FULL CHECK AND SEE IF IT WORKED. HERE'S AN EXAMPLE, AND I CAN ALSO SWITCH OFF TO A LIVE DOCUMENT THAT'S USING IT, BUT I WANTED YOU GUYS TO HAVE THESE IN THE SLIDE WHICH ARE JUST VISUALS. SO YOU HAVE THE ICON HERE ON MINE ON X LOOKS LIKE THAT FOR THE TOUCHUP READING ORDER TOOL, AND THEN THIS DIALOGUE BOX POPS UP, AND IN MY CASE WITH THIS DOCUMENT IT WAS JUST REGULAR MEETING NOTES AND IT WAS ALREADY USING THE STYLES. YOU SEE HOW EVERYTHING IS GRAYED OUT MEANING THAT IT'S ALREADY ACCESSIBLE, BUT IF IT WASN'T, IT WOULD PROBABLY -- LIKE IF I HAD A TABLE IN THERE AND IT WASN'T ACCESSIBLE, THE TABLE EDITOR WOULD COME OPEN, AND I WOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE CHANGES. OKAY. BUT AS YOU CAN SEE WITH THE -- SEE HOW IT HAS ALL LIKE THE DIFFERENT SECTIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED, AND YOU HAVE THE ORDER, AND YOU CAN MOVE IT AROUND AND MAKE CHANGES. HERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE WHERE IT'S A DIFFERENT DOCUMENT. IT'S THAT ONE I JUST HAD OPEN WHERE -- REMEMBER I JUST HAD THAT DOCUMENT OPEN AND YOU SAW I HAD THAT ICON MINNESOTA NORTH STARS AND THAT FULL CHECK WAS TELLING ME 30 I DIDN'T HAVE THE TAGGING RIGHT WITH IT, BUT ACTUALLY INTERESTINGLY I PULLED IT FROM A WEB SITE AND WHEN I COPIED AND PASTED IT, IT HAD MINNESOTA NORTH STAR ON SO ON THE WEB SITE THEY APPLIED ALT TEXT TO IT AND IT CAME RIGHT INTO THE DOCUMENT BECAUSE ONCE I TRIED THE TOUCHUP READING ORDER, IT POPPED UP THERE SO I COULD TELL. BUT USUALLY IF YOU HAVE A PICTURE IN THERE THAT DOESN'T HAVE ALT TEXT, IT WILL JUST SAY NO ALT TEXT, AND YOU IT CLICK ON IT AND PUT SOME ALT TEXT IN WITH IT. OKAY. I WANT TO GO IN HERE AND SHOW YOU REAL QUICK. OH, MY SCREEN IS A LITTLE FROZEN. OKAY. READING A LIVE DOCUMENT? YES. NO. OKAY, THERE IT IS. NO, THAT'S LIVE. OKAY. SO HERE WE ARE. I'LL GO TO THE OTHER ONE. HERE WE ARE. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE, RIGHT? NOW I'M GOING TO CHECK THE TURO TOOL, TOUCHUP READING ORDER, AND OUT POPS MY DIALOGUE BOX, AND IT'S TELLING ME 31 RIGHT HERE. SEE HOW IT SAYS THAT'S NOT IN? AND, OF COURSE, YOU CAN MAKE CHANGES TO THE COLOR FOR ANY PURPOSES TO VISUALLY SEE IT, AND THEN THE EXAMPLE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT -- HOLD ON. NOTICE IT HAS THE ORDER ONE, TWO. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE TWO IS, BUT THEN THREE AND FOUR, SO YOU COULD MOVE IT AROUND AND ADJUST IT AS YOU NEED BE FOR WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU'RE MAKING SO MAYBE A ONE WITH THAT. SEE, NOW I ADDED IT ALL IN THE SAME ONE, SO THERE'S A VARIETY OF THINGS YOU CAN DO. AND THEN YOU WANT TO SAY SHOW ORDER PANEL, WHICH IS AN OPTION, AND OVER HERE YOU CAN SEE WHATEVER IT IS IN YOUR REGULAR DOCUMENT. HERE'S MY PAGE ONE, AND THEN OF COURSE I HAVE MY -- THIS IS CALLED THE CONTAINER AND IT JUST SAYS WHAT IT IS AND WHAT'S IN IT. I HAVE A -- IN THE SLIDES THERE'S AN EXAMPLE. SEE WITH THE DIFFERENT DOCUMENT I HAVE. HERE'S MY FILES, AND THEN IF YOU CAN SEE THAT I'M IN THE TAGS, SO YOU CAN VIEW TAGS, AND -- OR YOU CAN BRING UP THE ORDER PANEL WITHIN THE TURO TOO. WAS I LOUD ENOUGH? WAS I GETTING QUIET? OKAY. 32 SO WITHIN THE SAME DOCUMENT HERE IN A REGULAR DOCUMENT IF YOU CAN SEE I HAVE THE TURO TOOL UP. I CAN EITHER PRESS -- LOOK AT THE ORDER AND THIS WILL LIST LIKE THE TREE, THE TAG TREE WILL POP UP, OR I CAN GO VIEW, NAVIGATION PANE AND LOOK AT THE TAGS, AND IT WILL SHOW LIKE RIGHT HERE IT SAYS TITLE, AND THEN UNDER IT THE CONTAINER IF I JUST SCROLL OVER IT, IT WILL TELL ME WHAT THE TITLE IS AND I CAN MATCH IT UP WITH THE TITLE ON THE DOCUMENT. SO YOU JUST HAVE TO DO THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING MATCHES UP. BUT IF YOU USE STYLES IN THE FIRST PLACE, THEN IT SHOULD BE FINE FOR THE MOST PART. OKAY. SO THEN YOU HAVE THE LINKS. YOU KNOW, YOU USE THE CREATE LINKS COMMAND. IT'S LIKE A CHAIN. I'M SURE YOU KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. IN ACROBAT PRO BECAUSE IT HAS ALL THE PANES SCREEN READERS REQUIRE, IT'S -- I LEARNED THIS FROM THE ADOBE PACKET, IT DOESN'T GENERATE ANY TAGS WITH THE LINKS, SO USE THE CREATE LINKS FEATURE. OKAY. AND THEN DO THE FOLLOWING TO MAKE THE LINKS ACTIVE AND ADD THEM TO THE TAG TREE. 33 SELECT THE TEXT OR OBJECT TO CREATE A LINK. JUST HIGHLIGHT THE TEXT, PRESS THE CREATE LINK, AND THEN THE CREATE LINKS DIALOGUE BOX WILL COME UP, AND BASICALLY YOU JUST FOLLOW THE ON SCREEN INSTRUCTIONS AS SET BY THE URL THE PAGE LINK OR FILES TARGET AND MAKE SURE YOU ATTACH MEANINGFUL DESCRIPTIONS TO THEM. AND ALSO IN BOOKMARKS YOU CAN LOOK AT THEM IN THE ACROBAT PRO. JUST MAKE SURE THEY MAKE SENSE AND IN THE LOGICAL READING ORDER. LIKE WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE BIT WAS THAT MAKE SURE THE SECURITY SETTINGS PERMIT ACCESS TO THE DOCUMENTS BY ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY, AND SO WHAT YOU DO IS JUST GO INTO THE DOCUMENT PROPERTIES LIKE I SHOWED YOU, HAVE IT OPEN, BYPASS WORD SECURITY AND THEN CHECK THE BOX ENABLE TEXT ACCESS FOR SCREEN READER DEVICES FOR THE VISUALLY IMPAIRED. SO THAT'S REALLY THE LAST STEP, AND SO TWO QUICK THINGS. ON IN DESIGN THERE WERE SOME QUESTIONS IN THE SURVEY THAT I REMEMBERED, SO ONCE I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN ABOUT THIS, I MADE SURE TO REMEMBER IT, AND BASICALLY WITHIN DESIGN FOCUS ON TAGS, GRAPHICS, AND BOOKMARKS. WE WERE ADVISED NOT TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. DO THE REST IN ACROBAT. 34 AND YOU WOULD FOLLOW THAT SAME ORDER, THAT PRODUCTION PROCESS ORDER. SO YOU DO THE SAME EXACT THING. AND THEN MAKE SURE THAT WHEN YOU DO EXPORT FROM IN DESIGN TO ACROBAT MAKE SURE IT COMPLIES WITH THE ACCESSIBILITY SETTINGS. I DON'T HAVE THAT. I CAN'T SHOW YOU HOW TO DO THAT. WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTRONIC FORMS, YOU WOULD DO THE SAME THING, CREATE THE FORM AND WHETHER IT BE A REGULAR WORD DOCUMENT OR -- LANA, YOU USE LIFE CYCLE? >> WE USE LIFE CYCLE SOMETIMES, YES >> TANYA: SO YOU COULD DO THAT. CONVERT THE FORM TO PDF WITH ACROBAT, CHECK THE TAB ORDER. MAKE SURE THAT THE TAB ORDER IS LOGICAL AGAIN AND ALSO MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE MEANINGFUL DESCRIPTIONS FOR EACH FIELD BECAUSE SOMETIMES -- THINK ABOUT IT, PUT YOUR NAME HERE. MAYBE VISUALLY YOU HAVE TWO SEPARATE LINES FOR THE SAME LAST NAME AND PEOPLE IF THEY COULD SEE THEY HAVE NO -- OKAY, THEY MEAN FIRST NAME HERE AND LAST NAME THERE, BUT IF I'M -- IF I CAN'T SEE THAT DISTINCTION, THEN A FIELD SHOULD SAY FIRST NAME AND A DESCRIPTION AND THE SECOND FIELD SHOULD SAY LAST NAME. OR IF YOU HAVE ONE FIELD, IT SHOULD SAY FIRST AND LAST 35 NAME. THAT TYPE OF COMMONSENSE THINKING. ALWAYS THINK OF THOSE. >> AND SOMETIMES THE DESCRIPTIONS ARE VERY LONG. >> TANYA: YEAH. HOPEFULLY NOT TOO LONG, THOUGH. FINDING A NICE BALANCE IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN YOU ADD THINGS TO DESCRIPTIVE TEXT ELEMENTS PARTICULARLY ALSO WITH THE ALT TEXT TOO. OKAY. SO ONCE YOU'RE DONE WITH THAT WITHIN ANY FORMS, THEN YOU JUST SAVE IT AS PDF AND GO THROUGH THE TYPICAL PDF PRODUCTION PROCESS. AND THEN I REALLY DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH MORE. I HAVE A COUPLE LIVE DOCUMENTS. WE CAN GO THROUGH EXAMPLES IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS, BUT I ALSO WANT TO HAND OUT -- I DON'T HAVE HANDOUTS BUT I'LL SEND IT TO INTERSECT AND THEY'LL POST IT ON THEIR WEB SITE, AND YOU CAN DOWNLOAD THE POWERPOINT AND ANY OTHER -- I HAVE LIKE TWO EXTRA REFERENCES, AND I THINK THAT WILL BE FINE. SO I WANTED TO LET YOU GUYS KNOW JUST FROM THE PROJECT PERSPECTIVE I'M SURE PEOPLE HAVE QUESTIONS. WE ARE PUTTING TOGETHER AN IMPLEMENTATION PLANNING GUIDE FOR AGENCIES, AND WE'RE PILOTING IT RIGHT NOW AT OET AND 36 SEEING HOW IT WORKS. BASICALLY IT'S GOING TO GIVE AGENCIES SOME KIND OF STEP-BY-STEP APPROACH TO FIGURING OUT HOW TO IMPLEMENT ACCESSIBILITY IN YOUR AGENCY. I KNOW A LOT OF AGENCIES ARE ALREADY AHEAD OF THE CURVE. BUT LIKE WHO IS IMPACTED OR WHAT OFFICES OR DIVISIONS WITHIN THE AGENCY AND HOW AND WHAT AND WHY AND WHAT DO YOU NEED TO DO TO MOVE FORWARD, PRETTY MUCH THAT TYPE OF THING, AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE WORD TRAINING CLASSES. RIGHT NOW WE'RE THINKING OF 24 CLASSES HERE TWO DAYS A WEEK, HALF-A-DAY CLASSES. >> ARE THEY HANDS ON? >> TANYA: THEY'RE HANDS ON. WE HAVE A TRAINING ROOM AND PRETTY MUCH JUST SHOW YOU HOW TO DO STYLES, THE THINGS WE COVERED LAST TIME I WAS HERE WITHIN WORD, DOING STYLES, ALT TEXT, CHARTS, GRAPHS, PROPERTIES, APPLYING PROPERTIES, SO IT'S ALL THE -- REALLY THESE ARE THE CORE LESSONS WHEN IT COMES TO ACCESSIBILITY, SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THOSE CLASSES IN APRIL, MAY, AND JUNE, TWO A WEEK FOR TWELVE WEEKS. SO YOU'LL BE GETTING INFORMATION ON THAT. SEAN, YOU HAD A QUESTION? >> YEAH, THIS TABLE -- (CAN'T HEAR) >> TANYA: YEAH, THIS IS A TENTATIVE ONE. WE'RE GETTING PRETTY CLOSE TO REAL DATES, BUT WHEN WE DO HAVE 37 THEM, HAVE THE -- HAVE IT LIKE ROOMS BOOKED AND EVERYTHING SET UP, THEN WE'LL BE SENDING NOTICES OUT AND HAVE IT ON OET'S WEB SITE. >> IS THE PDF CLASS, IS THAT THE SAME ONE YOU REFERENCED TAKING RECENTLY? >> TANYA: YEP. SO THE PDF CLASS IS GOING TO BE THROUGH THE SCIENCE MUSEUM, AND THERE WILL BE THREE CLASSES SO THERE'S GOING TO BE LIMITED AVAILABILITY, BUT THEY WILL BE IN MAY AND JUNE, AND, AGAIN, WE'LL BE SENDING OUT NOTICES, AND AGENCIES WILL BE ABLE TO SIGN UP FOR THAT. IF YOU'RE NOT AN EXECUTIVE BRANCH AGENCY, I'M -- WE'LL HAVE TO USE SOME PROJECT MONEY TO PAY FOR EXECUTIVE BRANCH AGENCY TRAINING, BUT THE SCIENCE MUSEUM IS HAVING -- I REMEMBER THEY WERE TELLING US THEY WERE HAVING SEVERAL PDF ACCESSIBILITY CLASSES IN THE NEXT LIKE MONTH OR TWO, SO YOU COULD SIGN UP FOR THAT. BUT IT'S ACTUALLY THE FOURTH CLASS OF THEIR ADOBE ACROBAT SERIES. OKAY. AND WE'RE ALSO GOING TO HAVE A WEB DEVELOPER KIND OF BA ALL-DAY TRAINING ONE TIME PER MONTH AND THAT WILL BE AT OET FOR APRIL, MAY AND JUNE. WE'RE -- WE HAVE AN ON-LINE TRAINING FOR CAPTIONING. IT'S AVAILABLE. 38 ONCE OET GETS ITS WEB SITE FOR ACCESSIBILITY ALL ORGANIZED AND OUR DEADLINE IS BY JUNE 30, OTHER THINGS I GUESS OVERRODE OUR SCHEDULE, BUT LIKE THE GOVERNOR'S WEB SITE, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GETTING ON THE PRIORITY LIST HERE SO THAT WILL BE AVAILABLE. YES, JAMIE. >> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT VIDEO CAPTIONING ESSENTIALS? >> YES. >> IN THE MEANTIME YOU CAN GO TO MNCDHH.ORG AND CLICK ON THE BUTTON, AND YOU'LL BE ABLE TO TAKE THE COURSE THERE THAT WAY TOO BUT IN THE MEANTIME. >> MNCDHH.ORG FOR CAPTIONING ESSENTIALS >> ONE MORE TIME. MNC LIKE CHARLIE DELTA HOTEL HOTEL.ORG? >> YES MINNESOTA COMMISSION OF DEAF, DEAFBLIND AND HARD-OF-HEARING MINNESOTANS >> THANKS. >> YEAH, IT DOESN'T CORRELATE TO THE ACRONYM BUT CLOSE ENOUGH >> TANYA: AND WE'RE ALSO DEVELOPING ON-LINE TRAINING ON ACCESSIBLE DOCUMENTS SO WE HAVE A CONTRACTOR WORKING ON THAT RIGHT NOW TOO, AND THAT SHOULD BE AVAILABLE BY THE END OF THE PROJECT TIME FRAME, SO THAT WILL BE FUTURE THINGS THAT YOU CAN HOPEFULLY SEND YOUR COLLEAGUES TO OR GET IN ON ANY OF THE TRAINING, THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO BE LEFT AFTER THE PROJECT CLOSES, AND 39 THERE'S ALSO GOING TO BE A WEBINAR FOR I.T. DEVELOPERS. IT'S BASICALLY GOING TO BE THE SAME THING AS A WEB DEVELOPER. BUT IT'S GOING TO BE AN ON-LINE VERSION SO YOU GUYS CAN GO TO THAT LATER OR IF YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO ATTEND. AND I JUST PUT THE WEB SITE BECAUSE THE WAY IT'S DESIGNED IS TO HAVE GUIDANCE AND INFORMATIONAL RESOURCES ORGANIZED AROUND KIND OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL AREA SO TO SPEAK BECAUSE A LOT OF THIS ACCESSIBILITY LOG TOUCHES PROCUREMENT. IT TOUCHES WEB DEVELOPMENT. IT TOUCHES ANY KIND OF APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT. IT TOUCHES ALL THESE DOCUMENTS THAT GET CREATED, SO IT COVERS A LOT OF DIFFERENT KIND OF FUNCTIONAL AREAS WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION, SO THAT'S THE CONCEPT, AND BASICALLY WE'RE JUST GOING TO PUT IT UP THERE FOR YOU GUYS TO GO TO AS A SINGLE PLACE TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT REALLY WHAT IS ACCESSIBILITY AND WHY DOES IT APPLY TO ME AND HOW TO -- WHAT DO I NEED TO KNOW TO DO IT IN MY JOB. DOES THAT HELP? ARE THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? DO YOU GUYS WANT ME TO GO AND DO SOME EXAMPLES SOME MORE? OR DO YOU THINK THAT THE POWERPOINT HAS ENOUGH EXAMPLES FOR YOU TO LOOK AT AFTER YOU LEAVE? 40 SEAN. >> IN ACROBAT I HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS. >> I CAN'T HEAR YOU VERY WELL. >> SORRY. I HAD A COUPLE QUESTIONS IN ACROBAT PRO. REFRESH MY MEMORY A LITTLE BIT. THE TURO TOOL, THE ACCESSIBILITY CHECK -- RATHER THE FULL CHECK. THAT I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GOT AN UPDATE THAT I DON'T -- >> TANYA: I HAVE X. >> THE OPTIONS FOR THE CHECK, THE OPTIONS ARE GO TO PDF SECTION 508 AND THEN THERE'S THE WCAG ONE AND TWO. AS FAR AS WHAT YOU'VE SEEN AS FAR AS INS AND OUTS USING THE DIFFERENT SETTINGS FOR THOSE? >> TANYA: WHAT VERSION DO YOU HAVE? >> NINE. >> TANYA: DO YOU GUYS KNOW? >> WHAT IS HE ASKING? SETTINGS? >> TANYA: SO BASICALLY IN 9 IF YOU DO THE ACCESSIBILITY CHECK, IT HAS A SEPARATE COUPLE DIFFERENT KIND OF OPTIONS, RIGHT, SECTION 508 CHECK, A WCAG CHECK. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE -- >> YEAH. >> TANYA: AND YOU'RE WONDERING WHETHER YOU SHOULD DO ALL OF THEM OR WHAT THE DIFFERENCE IS OR IF THERE'S 41 OVERLAP. IS THAT KIND OF WHAT YOUR QUESTION IS? >> SEAN: I GUESS, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T SPECIFY WHICH LEVEL OF THE WCAG OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. >> TANYA: OH. YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN -- >> IS THERE A SUGGESTION AS FAR AS WHICH ONE TO USE? >> TANYA: I'D TRY BOTH OF THEM. I DON'T HAVE THAT VERSION, SO I DON'T KNOW IT THAT WELL. YOU GUYS KNOW? OR HAVE ANY -- I DON'T HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ON THAT. I THINK THE MAIN POINT IS JUST TO CHECK THEM ALL AND SEE WHAT'S ACCESSIBLE AND THINK ABOUT THE PRINCIPAL CONCEPTS. WHATEVER VERSION YOU'RE USING, MAKE SURE THE STRUCTURE IS THERE, MAKE SURE THE LANGUAGE IS SET AND THE READ ORDER IS RIGHT. SO I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T HAVE A RECOMMENDATION. MAYBE YOU HAVE A BETTER RECOMMENDATION. I WOULD COUNT ON YOU FOR THAT. >> SEAN: AFTER -- >> WHAT'S YOUR RECOMMENDATION? >> SEAN: AFTER SOME DIGGING I MIGHT HAVE ONE. >> THIS IS JENNIFER SMITH. 42 ADOBE DOES HAVE A DISCLAIMER ON THEIR SITE WE HAVE THESE SETTINGS FOR 508 AND WCAG, BUT ALSO HAVE A LEGAL DISCLAIMER THAT SAYS DON'T GO TO COURT WITH THIS AND SAY I CHECKED WITH ADOBE AND IT'S ACCESSIBLE AND THAT'S TRUE. >> EVEN THE DIALOGUE BOX HAS THE DISCLAIMER >> WHATEVER CHECK YOU RUN AND IT WORKS AND YOU PRINT IT -- (CAN'T HEAR) >> SEAN: AND I WAS -- I'D LOVE TO NETWORK A LITTLE BIT WITH PEOPLE WHO USE JAWS -- (CAN'T HEAR) I'M NOT -- WHETHER OR NOT THE SAME WAY SHORTCUTS (CAN'T HEAR). I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK PUTTING -- (CAN'T HEAR) >> THIS MIGHT BE A REALLY GOOD ONE TO FOLLOW UP WITH AND POST YOUR FINDINGS ON LINKED IN BECAUSE I BET THAT THE MAJORITY OF US ARE ON NINE BECAUSE TEN JUST CAME OUT. >> YEAH. >> SO THAT MIGHT BE USEFUL IF ANYBODY DOES SOME RESEARCH TO SHARE IT. >> TANYA: AND I'M SURE AND I CAN ASK TOO THAT PEOPLE THAT WE DID IT WEBINAR WITH THEY'RE REALLY EXPERT. THEY KNOW ALL THESE LITTLE NUANCES, SO I CAN ASK THEM, BUT I'M SURE YOU CAN DO A SEARCH AND FIND AN ANSWER. THIS IS PRETTY COMMON. BUT I JUST DID THE -- I WENT TO 43 GO DO THE FULL CHECK AND YOU CAN SEE ON THE SCREEN I HAVE A COUPLE DIFFERENT OPTIONS THERE TOO, SO I HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT IT YET. >> SEAN: I MISSPOKE TOO JUST IN CASE I CONFUSED ANYBODY. (DIDN'T HEAR) >> TANYA: OKAY. I GUESS I JUST DO THIS ONE, BUT MAYBE SOME PEOPLE WANT TO DO ONLY THAT ONE. I DON'T KNOW. THIS IS WHAT THE TEACHER SAID TO DO; RIGHT? >> DON'T WE HAVE TO MEET WITH 508, THOUGH, FOR OUR FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS? SO WOULDN'T THAT BE THE LOGICAL ONE AS A STATE PERSON? >> I THOUGHT IT WAS THE ACCESSIBILITY. >> JAMIE, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO? >> TANYA: YEAH, IT'S IN PLAY >> JAMIE: THIS IS JAMIE, AND I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT AS A STATE THE FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS REQUIRE SECTION 508. >> RIGHT. >> JAMIE: SO IF YOU HAVE A PROJECT BEING FUNDED THROUGH SECTION 508, I HIGHLY SUGGEST FOLLOWING SECTION 508 BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REQUIRED TO. AND SECTION 508 IS VERY CLOSE TO WCAG, BUT IT'S NOT 44 NECESSARILY THE WHOLE THING. NOW, AS A STATE, HOWEVER, IF YOU'RE AT THE STATE LEVEL, WE HAVE ADOPTED WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES 2.0 AS A A.A. LEVEL FOR ANYTHING RELATED TO THE INTERNET, SO IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING AT THE STATE LEVEL, I SUGGEST USING -- BUT IT DOESN'T HURT TO TRY BOTH. THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH VERY COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER. THERE'S JUST THE -- AT THE -- THERE'S JUST A FEW THINGS LIKE ON THE JAVASCRIPT ISSUE AND STUFF LIKE THAT THAT'S SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. >> THIS IS SEAN. THAT'S PART OF WHY I WAS ASKING IS WE ACTUALLY HAVE BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL FUNDING, SO IT'S TRYING TO EVEN SEPARATE OUT WHICH PROGRAM GETS WHAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST EASIER TO MAKE SURE EVERYTHING FITS UNDER THAT. >> TANYA: GUESS WHAT. I HAVE A RECOMMENDATION FOR YOU NOW. GO WITH THE -- BECAUSE I DID IT -- GO WITH ADOBE PDF BECAUSE IT STICKS TO THESE BASIC CONCEPTS THAT YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON. I THINK IF YOU DO THESE, YOU'RE GOOD FOR BOTH, AND YOU DON'T REALLY NEED TO WORRY IF IT'S ONE OR THE OTHER. JUST DO THE ADOBE PDF BECAUSE IT COVERS -- IT CHECKS FOR THE THINGS THAT WE CARE ABOUT. >> SEAN: THE OTHERS GET MORE GRANULAR. 45 >> TANYA: OR THEY JUST COME AT IT FROM DIFFERENT SECTIONS OF THAT SET OF STANDARDS. IF YOU GO FROM ADOBE PDF THIS SETTING, IT CHECKS IT FROM THOSE CORE PRINCIPLES THAT WE CARE ABOUT. >> THAT MAY BE MORE ABOUT CAUSES AND SYMPTOMS AS IT WERE? >> TANYA: YEAH, I THINK SO. I THINK MY RECOMMENDATION IS GO WITH THE ADOBE PDF OPTION. GREAT. GREAT QUESTIONS. GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO GO IN AND GET SOME ANSWERS. >> JAMIE WANTS TO SPEAK. >> TANYA: JAMIE. >> JAMIE: YEAH, THIS IS JAMIE SPEAKING. I WAS ALSO GOING TO JUST REMIND YOU THAT ALT TEXT, YOU CAN PUT ANYTHING INTO AN ALT TEXT, SO THE FULL CHECK EVEN THOUGH IT'S SAYING YOU HAVE ALL THE TAGS, ALT TEXT IN THERE, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS -- IT ACTUALLY DESCRIBES WHAT THE IMAGE IS, SO I SUGGEST GOING AND LOOKING AT YOUR ALT TEXT TO MAKE SURE IT'S THE ACTUAL ALT TEXT AND NOT JUST THE ACTUAL NAME OF THE OBJECT. >> YEAH. >> JAMIE: BECAUSE I'VE SEEN MANY A DOCUMENT THAT SUPPOSEDLY HAS ALT TEXT BUT IT'S JUST BALLS AND 46 STRING.JPG. >> I THINK THAT'S A GOOD POINT. YOU GET USED TO USING CHECKERS AND VALIDATE, OH, OKAY WE GOT THE THUMBS UP FROM THIS (CAN'T HEAR) >> TANYA: HEY, IN THE BACK THERE. >> JAKE FROM MNDOT. I GUESS IN MY ROLE, I'M SURE PEOPLE HAVE A LIMITED TIME OR RESOURCES ISSUE. WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO DO IS MORE SO IN MY OWN SPHERE OF INFLUENCE IS GET PEOPLE TO DO SIMPLE STUFF LIKE UTILIZING THE HEADINGS. NOT EXACTLY STYLES AND ORDER. I THINK IT'S SIMPLE STUFF LIKE THAT BECAUSE YOU CAN TAKE ALL THE INDIVIDUAL TRAINING CLASSES YOU WANT TO, BUT IF YOU DON'T START EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT HOW TO DO THIS STUFF OR WHY, I MEAN THERE'S ONLY A LIMITED GROUP OF US THAT CAN EVER GET TO TRAINING OR KNOW HOW TO DO THIS PERFECTLY. IT'S NEVER REALLY GOING TO TAKE OFF. SO I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND THAT IF YOU HAVE OFFICE MEETINGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, JUST SHOW PEOPLE HOW TO USE IT. YOU KNOW WHAT, HALF THE TIME I DON'T EVEN TELL THEM ABOUT THE ACCESSIBILITY ISSUE. WHAT I DO IS I STYLE UP A DOCUMENT AND THEN I FLIP IT TO A DIFFERENT STYLE AND SAY HEY IF YOU GIVE THIS TO YOUR 47 BOSS THIS 80 PAGE REPORT AND THEY SAY, WOW, I DON'T LIKE HOW THAT LOOKS. INSTEAD OF HAVING TO GO THROUGH AND CHANGE EVERY LINE YOU CAN JUST CHANGE THE STYLE, AND THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL TO TRY TO THINK ABOUT ALTERNATIVE WAYS TO GET PEOPLE TO USE THESE. ANOTHER THING I TELL PEOPLE IS, HEY, IF YOU USE THE STYLES IT WILL BOOKMARK IT WHEN YOU CONVERT IT INTO A PDF. HOW DO I MAKE BOOKMARKS? THAT'S THE EASIEST WAY TO MAKE BOOKMARKS. SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO BITE OFF CHUNKS AND GET PEOPLE TO DO A LITTLE BIT WITHOUT MAKING IT THIS BIG THREATENING -- AND I KNOW IT'S IMPORTANT. I'M NOT TRYING TO SAY WE SHOULDN'T MAKE PEOPLE AWARE OF THE BROADER ISSUES, BUT I THINK YOU CAN GET THE ADMINISTRATIVE PEOPLE AND SOME OF THE EVERYDAY PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AS FOCUSED ON TECHNOLOGY TO DO IT PROPERLY WITHOUT OVERWHELMING THEM. >> TANYA: I COULDN'T AGREE WITH YOU MORE, ABSOLUTELY. AND IN FACT THAT'S WHY WE DECIDED TO FOCUS ON TRYING TO GET AS MANY WORD TRAINING CLASSES AND TO BE HONEST BECAUSE I'M GOING TO BE THE ONE THAT'S SHOWING PEOPLE HOW TO DO IT, BUT I -- I MEAN YOU CAN -- MY FOCUS HAS BEEN TO TRY TO MAKE IT -- PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY'RE GOING 48 TO BECOME MORE SAVVY, MORE PRODUCTIVE. SO IT'S A POSITIVE SUM SOLUTION, WHICH IS A GREAT THING. AND SO HOPEFULLY I CAN SHOW PEOPLE ENOUGH FOR THEM TO TAKE IT OFF TO THEIR OFFICES. BUT I REALLY WOULD ALSO BE WILLING TO MAKE TIME THIS SPRING TO DO LIKE IF YOU'RE AT A BIG AGENCY TO DO A THIRTY PEOPLE -- MAYBE LIKE TWO OR THREE SESSIONS JUST WITHIN YOUR AGENCY BECAUSE THE PROJECT DOES END IN JUNE 30, AND WE REALLY JUST ARE PRETTY HONEST ABOUT THE BUDGET SITUATION, AND SO DON'T REALLY KNOW IF THERE WILL BE ANY RESOURCES. THAT'S WHY WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE SOME ELECTRONIC VERSIONS WHICH YOU ALSO CAN LEVERAGE WITHIN THE AGENCY, BUT I WOULD REALLY MAKE TIME TO DO THAT BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE BIG BANG FOR YOUR BUCK IS FOR EVERYBODY. EVEN THE PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNICATIONS OFFICES BECAUSE THEN THEY CAN JUST APPLY THEIR STYLE SETTINGS AND MOVE ALONG. >> IF YOU WIND UP DOING ANY OF THOSE, I'D LIKE TO HEAR ABOUT IT BECAUSE I KNOW JUST THE NUMBER OF SKYWAY BRIDGES YOU HAVE TO CROSS -- >> I CAN'T HEAR YOU VERY WELL. >> SORRY. >> WHEN YOU SAY DOING THOSE, WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO? >> THE SESSIONS. 49 >> THE AGENCY ONES OR THE 24? >> THE ONES YOU'RE OFFERING TO DO. >> TANYA: OH, THE EXTRA ONES I'M WILLING TO DO? >> YES, YES. >> OKAY. >> BECAUSE I KNOW JUST GETTING SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUES TO SOME OF THESE THINGS, THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TO GO TO THAT MANY ANYWAY. IT HELPS A LOT. >> TANYA: I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE. LET ME KNOW. THERE ARE A COUPLE BIG THINGS I HAVE TO PUT TOGETHER LIKE THE IMPLEMENTATION GUIDE FOR AGENCIES, BUT AFTER THAT I REALLY WANT TO BE AVAILABLE TO DO THESE TRAININGS, AND I'M TRYING TO MAKE IT AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE, BY THE WAY. I HOPE TODAY WAS SIMPLE ENOUGH, OR ARE YOU STILL LEFT WITH A LOT OF CONFUSION? YEAH. A QUESTION OVER HERE? ALL RIGHT. ACTUALLY, WE HAD -- KAY. >> KAY CORSGARD WITH MNDOT. I KNOW I'VE ASKED THIS QUESTION BEFORE, BUT I WANT TO RAISE IT AGAIN AND GET SOME IDEAS FROM THE GROUP. WE HAVE A SMALL GROUP OF CLIENTS WHO ARE NOT -- DON'T 50 FIND PDF'S ACCESSIBLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES AND ARE ASKING THAT WE POST THINGS IN WORD, AND I'M WONDERING WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IS THERE ANY DOWN SIDE OF DOUBLE POSTING AS A WORD AND PDF? WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS? >> I KNOW IT'S -- WE HAVE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEFT ALREADY BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME THOUGHTS ON THIS. BUT I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS THAT THEY SEE PDF AND THEY THINK IT'S GOING TO BE LIKE A NON-OCRJPEG OR IT'S GOING TO BE A MESS, IT'S NOT WORTH OPENING >> CAN YOU TALK LOUDER. >> I'M NOT USED TO PEOPLE TELLING ME I NEED TO BE LOUDER. BUT I KNOW A LOT OF USERS WHEN I PARTICIPATED IN ACCESSIBILITY USABILITY STUDIES I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE REGULAR SCREEN READER USERS. THEY SEE THAT AND THEY DON'T BOTHER CLICKING IT. SOME OF THAT -- SO I'VE TOYED WITH WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THAT. >> THEY'RE JUST NOT EDUCATED. >> TANYA: IT WILL JUST TAKE THEM A WHILE FOR THEM TO SPEND TIME CHECKING. >> CAN YOU ELABORATE ON WHAT THE ACTUAL ISSUES ARE, KAY. >> IN A COUPLE CASES IT'S EQUIPMENT ISSUES WHERE THEY'RE NOT USING JAWS. 51 THEY'RE USING BRAILLE READER. >> A TOUCH PAD. IT WON'T CONVERT A PDF AT ALL INTO A SET OF BRAILLE IMPRESSIONS. KAY, YOUR QUESTION WAS THE SAME AS MINE AND THAT IS IF THERE WERE AGENCIES THAT HAVE HAD IN THEIR PLANNING DISCUSSIONS AND THEIR POLICY DISCUSSIONS AND I'M TALKING THIS IS THE STATE LEVEL AGENCIES WHERE THEY'VE MADE ANY CONSCIOUS DECISIONS TO SAY AS LONG AS WE'RE CREATING -- YOU KNOW, IF THE ROOT DOCUMENT FOR AN ACCESSIBLE PDF IS AN ACCESSIBLE WORD, WHY EXCEPT IN THE CASES OF VERY HIGH DESIGN PRODUCTS USE A PDF AT ALL, AND I'M JUST WONDERING IF YOU'VE HAD ANY DISCUSSIONS. >> KAY: I CAN SEE BECAUSE THE COUNTER TO THAT IS THAT WORD IS STILL PROPRIETARY. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY HAS ACCESS TO, AND THE THIRD ANGLE SO THEN IF YOU POST -- ON THE SURFACE THE EASY ANSWER IS POST BOTH. ON THE OTHER HAND, THAT CREATES MORE LINKS ON A PAGE, MORE VISUAL CLUTTER AND AUDITORY CLUTTER TOO FOR SOMEBODY WHO IS LISTENING TO THE PAGE. SO IN SOME WAYS IT ADDS A LEVEL OF CONFUSION THAT I JUST -- LOOKING FOR DIRECTION. >> WORD NOW HAS COME OUT WITH A STARTER VERSION THAT I'M PRETTY SURE IS FREE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO OPEN AND DO 52 SOME THINGS WITH WORD DOC. I THINK MICROSOFT IS TRYING TO ADDRESS THAT. BECAUSE THE AUSTRALIA GOVERNMENT WAS TALKING ABOUT DISCONTINUING PDF AT ALL BECAUSE OF THE FACT THEY'RE NOT -- YOU CAN DO ALL THE ACCESSIBILITY CHECKS YOU WANT BUT THE ONLY WAY YOU'LL REALLY GOING TO KNOW IS TO GIVE IT TO SOMEBODY WITH A SCREEN READER OR SIMILAR TECHNOLOGY AND TELL THEM TO CHECK IT. OBVIOUSLY THAT'S NOT ALWAYS PRACTICAL FOR EVERY DOCUMENT YOU'RE PUTTING OUT, SO I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY A STOPGAP. WHAT I WANT TO SEE LONG TERM REALLY IS SOME EXPLORATION OF LONG TERM TECHNOLOGY OR SOME GOVERNMENT OPEN SOURCE STANDARDS OR TECHNOLOGY THAT WOULD ADDRESS THIS ISSUE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP UP -- FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BUY ADOBE PROFESSIONAL? LONG TERM COST WISE IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE SO WE REALLY SHOULD BE GETTING TOGETHER ON A NATIONAL LEVEL AND FIGURE OUT WAYS TO GET AROUND THIS STUFF. >> THIS IS CHRIS. I'M JUST WONDERING IF THERE ARE ANY -- IF YOU'VE HAD ANY FORMALIZED DISCUSSIONS WITHIN YOUR GROUP ABOUT WHETHER THERE'S ONE FORMAT THAT IS PREFERABLE VERSUS ANOTHER ONE OR IF THERE ARE ANY -- WHAT GUIDE INCREASES ARE TAKING IN THERE BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IN OUR AGENCY WE PUT 53 THOUSANDS OF DOCUMENTS A YEAR UP ON OUR WEB SITE, AND WE'RE AT THE POINT RIGHT NOW WHERE WE'RE TRYING TO WEIGH WHETHER IT WOULD -- IT MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL TO USE PDF'S EXCEPT FOR IN VERY HIGH DESIGN AREAS. LIKE TANYA, THE DOCUMENT YOU WERE SHOWING US, THAT'S A PRETTY LOW DESIGN DOCUMENT. YOU CREATE THAT IN WORD, AND YOU USE A SET OF STYLES FOR IT, AND YOU KNOW IT'S ACCESSIBLE IN WORD. MY GUT IS TO ASK THE QUESTION WHY WOULD YOU NEED IT IN PDF ON LINE? YOU KNOW -- >> TANYA: AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ASKING THAT. I MEAN IT WOULD BE NICE, AND MAYBE THAT'S WHAT WE NEED, BUT FOR THE STATE TO HAVE A VERY EXPLICIT STANDARD ON THIS ISSUE LIKE -- >> RIGHT. AND THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION IS OET OFFERING ANY GUIDANCE TO AGENCIES SAYING REALLY FOR 90 PERCENT OF YOUR USES HERE, YOU WOULDN'T NEED TO USE A PDF EXCEPT FOR STUFF THAT'S, YOU KNOW, GRAPHIC INTENSE. >> YOU COULD EVEN TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER AND SAY WHY DO WE NEED TO USE WORD. NO OFFENSE, BUT WE CAN DO ALL THE STUFF IN HTML AND GET THE SAME OUTPUTS AND THEN CONVERT IT TO WHATEVER YOU WANT USING XML OR XMLT SO THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT 54 THINGS WE DO BECAUSE IT'S EASY AND IT'S JUST THE WAY THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE, BUT WE DON'T NEED TO DO IT. >> TANYA: YEAH. JOHN. >> JOHN FROM FREDRICKSON. I'M GLAD THE CONVERSATION HAS TAKEN THIS TURN BECAUSE I'VE OFTEN GRIPED ABOUT PDF'S. THERE ARE OCCASIONS I UNDERSTAND WHERE IT MAKES SOME SENSE TO USE THEM, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN OVERUSED I THINK, AND I THINK THERE'S A DISCUSSION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN BEFORE HOW DO YOU MAKE A PDF ACCESSIBLE WHICH IS THIS CONVERSATION, WHICH IS SHOULD WE BE PUTTING THIS IN PDF AT ALL BECAUSE IT ISN'T ONLY PEOPLE USING SCREEN READERS WHO GET FRUSTRATED BY PDF'S. IT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE. I MEAN I'VE BEEN WATCHING USABILITY TESTS AND YOU SEE SOMEBODY CLICK A LINK, ESPECIALLY A LINK THAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS OWNING A PDF, AND PEOPLE GO UGH AND THE FIRST THING THEY DO IS WAIT FOR IT TO OPEN AND THEN CLOSE IT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BOTHER HAVING TO WADE THROUGH THIS DOCUMENT OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE TO LOOK FOR WHAT THEY'RE LOOKING FOR. SO THERE'S A BASIC USABILITY QUESTION EVEN ABOUT USAGE OF PDF'S, AND I THINK IT'S A REALLY GOOD CONVERSATION TO HAVE I MEAN TO REALLY ASK DO WE NEED TO USE -- OR WHEN DO WE NEED TO USE A PDF. 55 >> THIS IS SEAN. I KNOW THAT I ROUTINELY WHEN COLLEAGUES WILL SAY, OH, LET'S POST THIS WORD FILE IN PDF. WHY WOULDN'T IT JUST NUMBER THE SAME SYNTAX? IS THERE ANY WAY TO GET AROUND IT? YOU CAN'T -- PDF IS NOT REALLY INDEXABLE. YOU'RE NOT GETTING RESULTS -- WHO IS USING IT TO THE SAME DEGREE YOU ARE AS FAR AS -- (CAN'T HEAR) JUST I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY OFTEN IS JUST THIS ARTIFACT IN THE PRINT PARADIGM, THIS THING IN PRINT. YOU CAN PRINT IN BROWSER TOO BUT IT'S JUST A REALLY -- YOU CAN'T BOOKMARK IT THE SAME WAY. YOU'VE GOT A FILE YOU HAVE TO DOWNLOAD AGAIN. OR -- ANYWAY EVERY BENEFIT THERE IS ABOUT THE WEB HITS THE WALL WHEN YOU'RE TALKING USUALLY DESKTOP DOCUMENTS LIKE THAT. >> TANYA: YES, JED. >> JED: AS WE GET OUR ARMS AROUND IT AS AN AGENCY, WE'RE GOING TO BE DEVELOPING RULES FOR STAFF WHEN PDF IS APPROPRIATE AND WHEN IT'S NOT. I THINK IT KIND OF STEMS FROM THE CONTENT CREATION. IN A LARGE AGENCY CONTENT -- (CAN'T HEAR) -- THEY'RE USING TO CREATING PDF AND SENDING IT TO WHOEVER TO POST ON THE WEB AND THEY'RE USED TO THAT, SO I THINK WE NEED TO -- YOU KNOW, WHATEVER -- WHOEVER NEEDS TO DO IT. IN 56 MY CASE IT'S MY WEB TEAM AT THE DNR WE NEED TO POUND THAT INTO THE AGENCY THAT THAT'S NOT AN APPROPRIATE USE FOR THESE THINGS THAT ARE NOT GRAPHIC INTENSIVE OR WHATEVER AND JUST MAKE THAT CLEAR BECAUSE THERE'S WAY TOO MANY DOCUMENTS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN HTML FOR ALL THE REASONS SEAN WAS TALKING ABOUT. THE WEB STATS, THE BOOKMARKING, ALL THAT STUFF. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE, AND PEOPLE JUST DON'T KNOW. >> I THINK IT COMES BACK TO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT ARE THESE AVAILABLE AND -- (CAN'T HEAR) --YOU HAVE 100 DIFFERENT PEOPLE CREATING DOCUMENTS, THERE'S OBVIOUSLY NO WAY ALL OF THEM ARE GOING TO KNOW HTML. >> WHETHER -- SORRY TO JUMP IN. KIND OF THE SAME THING ABOUT, WELL, WHAT DO WE DO TO FIX THAT. MOST PLACES ARE USING SOME CONTENT MANAGEMENT THAT REFRESH THE BUTTON. ACROBAT PRO -- (CAN'T HEAR) >> ON OUR INTRANET IT'S PRETTY -- THERE'S A LITTLE LESS THAN 100 PEOPLE, BUT ON OUR EXTERNAL SITE IT'S PRETTY RESTRICTIVE AS TO WHO CAN PHYSICALLY POST PDF FILES. THERE'S PROBABLY ONLY FIFTEEN PEOPLE THAT CAN POST PDF'S. >> THAT'S INTERESTING. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHERE 57 YOU'RE PUBLISHING THE INFORMATION AND HOW IT'S SAVED. IF YOU WERE TO GIVE SOMEONE A FREE HTML EDITOR AND TELL THEM TO USE THAT, THERE'S NO REASON YOU CAN'T SAVE STUFF AS HTML FILES. WE'RE THINKING ABOUT THINGS IN TERMS OF WHERE IT'S PUBLISHED, BUT REALLY WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW IT'S CREATED AND WHY. IT WOULD BE MORE OF AN EDUCATIONAL THING THAN ANYTHING. THE OTHER THING I WOULD LIKE TO BRING UP TO FURTHER THIS IS WE GET TOGETHER A LOT AND WE TALK ABOUT STUFF LIKE THIS, BUT WE RARELY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. >> TANYA: I WOULD BE WILLING TO ORGANIZE A WORK GROUP ON COMING UP WITH A RECOMMENDATION ON THIS. IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE ADVANCED AND PROVIDE A LOT OF REALLY GOOD INPUT, AND THAT WAS A THOUGHT OF MINE BEFORE TOO. I'M SORRY. WHAT'S YOUR NAME? >> SHALETTE. THE REASON WHY PDF CAME OUT IN THE FIRST PLACE IS NOT EVERYBODY HAS THE SAME PROGRAMS THE SAME VERSION AND THINGS, SO WHEN YOU SEND THEM A FILE SAY IN A LARGER SAY A 2007, SOMEBODY MAY STILL HAVE A 2003, AND THEY CANNOT OPEN UP THE FILE, SO THAT WAS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF A PDF. BUT IT'S LIKE ANYTHING ELSE, IT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO USE WORD EVERY DAY, AND THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE THE 58 PROGRAM, SO THAT'S WHEN YOU GET BACK. THEY DON'T USE THE HEADER THEY'VE BEEN TAUGHT AND RATHER TAKE THE LAZY WAY OUT AND DON'T USE THE STYLES, AND IT'S NOT READABLE, AND THEN IT MAKES IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCESSIBLE, YOU KNOW, THAT USE THESE READERS AND STUFF. THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO READ BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A CONSISTENT WAY OF DOING THE STYLES, YOU KNOW, SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT OR IT NEEDS TO BE MANDATORY, AND PEOPLE WHO USE WORD SHOULD REALLY KNOW THE PROGRAMS. YES, I AM A WEB DESIGNER. I KNOW ALL MY PROGRAMS. I DO END DESIGN, ALL OF THEM, AND YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO USE IT, AND THAT'S THE MAIN PROBLEM NOW. PEOPLE NEED TO BE TRAINED AND BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE OF HOW TO USE ONE PROGRAM, WHICH IS WORD, AND WITH ACROBAT THE ONLY THING WITH ACROBAT IS SOMEBODY HAS TO BE TAUGHT AND TRAINED. THE USER HAS TO BE MANDATORY, AND IT HAS TO BE A SET RULE SAYING THIS IS THE WAY IT HAS TO GO. JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER PART OF YOUR JOB. IT JUST HAS TO BE SET IN STONE AND DONE. >> THAT REENFORCES TOO THE CMS PART OF THE CONVERSATION TOO BECAUSE THESE OTHER RUN-INS ARE GOING TO USE PASTE WORDS ARE GOING TO -- (CAN'T HEAR) 59 >> AND THEN I WANT TO SAY THAT IT IS TRUE, YOU CAN SAVE A DOCUMENT IN ANY FORM EVEN IF YOU'RE IN WORD. YOU CAN SAVE IT AS AN HTML DOCUMENT, BUT AGAIN NOT EVERYBODY THAT KNOWS HOW TO USE HTML OR READ, SO THAT'S WHY THEY CAME OUT WITH THE PDF VERSION TO MAKE IT A LITTLE MORE ACCESSIBLE. AND THEN WHEN YOU GO TO SAY JUST PUTTING STUFF ON THE WEB, A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO PUT A LONG VERSION OF INFORMATION ON THE WEB SO THEREFORE THEY PUT IT IN A PDF FORMAT SO THE WEB IS SUPPOSED TO BE FAST. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO GET THE INFORMATION AND GO. YOU DON'T WANT TO GO THERE AND LOOK AT A LONG DOCUMENT. AND IF YOU DO HAVE A PDF, YOU SHOULD SET IT UP TO SAY YOU CAN JUMP TO THE RIGHT SECTION AND DO THINGS. PEOPLE AREN'T TAUGHT OR THEY'RE IGNORING WHAT THEY SHOULD DO. >> THERE'S OTHER THINGS -- AGAIN, WE DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT ALL THE OTHER PERIPHERAL REASONS. YOU CAN JUST TALK ABOUT COST SAVINGS. THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD REASONS TO THINK ABOUT USING THIS STUFF RELATED TO OUR CURRENT SITUATION WITH THE BUDGET WHERE, YOU KNOW, IF WE ACTUALLY DO SOME OF THE STUFF WE CAN NOT ONLY MAKE OURSELVES LOOK GOOD, BUT YOU START THINNING OUT THE HERD OF THE NUMBER OF PROGRAMS, IT'S ONLY GOING TO HELP YOU STANDARDIZE THINGS ESPECIALLY WITH PEOPLE WHO ONLY TOUCH 60 THIS STUFF AS NEEDED. (CAN'T HEAR) THE MEDIAN AGE OF MNDOT IS 47 OR SOMETHING. SO WE GOT TO AT LEAST HAVE SOME VISION AND TRY AND WORK TOWARDS SOMETHING. >> I THINK THE BEST PRACTICES -- >> TANYA: OKAY. I'M LIKE WE GOT -- I THINK I KNOW WHAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR, AND I THINK THAT -- WAIT, WHAT'S YOUR NAME AGAIN? >> JAY >> TANYA: YEAH, JAY. YOU CAN BE ON A TEAM THAT OTHER PEOPLE CAN BE ON AND I CAN COORDINATE AND LEAD YOU GUYS TOWARDS TO FACILITATE. YOU GUYS KNOW MORE THAN ME. YOU'RE THE EXPERTS. YOU HAVE TO DO IT BY THE WAY. OVER THE NEXT TWO MONTHS MAYBE PUT TOGETHER A LITTLE MINI KIND OF REPORT ON THIS LIKE WHAT'S THE SITUATION, WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS AND ALTERNATIVES OF WHAT'S RECOMMENDED, AND THEN I CAN TAKE THAT AND PUT IT THROUGH THE ARCHITECTURAL REVIEW BOARD. LIKE THE STANDARDS ARE ALREADY HAVING A SECOND UPDATE, BUT THAT CAN BE A THIRD UPDATE TO THEM. THEY'RE ALREADY GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS now JUST SO YOU KNOW. DOES THAT SOUND LIKE SOMETHING PEOPLE WILL BE REALLY 61 HAPPY WITH? BECAUSE I HEARD GUIDANCE, AND I THINK THE AIR BE THE TECHNICAL STANDARDS. I'M PRETTY SURE WE THINK ABOUT WEB OR INCLUDE IT WITH THE ACCESSIBILITY AND FILL IT IN. SOUND GOOD? IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING, CAN YOU LET ME KNOW? LIKE EITHER COME UP TO ME AND GIVE ME YOUR NAME OR SEND ME AN E-MAIL. MY INFO IS AT THE END OF THE PRESENTATION. >> I JUST HAVE A COMMENT, TANYA. IN TALKING ABOUT WORD, WE RELY -- AT DHS WE RELY ON TEMPLATES A LOT, AND EVEN IF THERE ARE THOSE THAT AREN'T THAT SAVVY IN WORD THAT A TEMPLATE COULD REALLY BE BENEFICIAL. >> TANYA: YEAH, LIKE FILE, OPEN, NEW, AND THEN YOU CAN SELECT THE TEMPLATE. >> YEAH, AND YOU HAVE ALL YOUR STYLES SET UP. >> TANYA: YEAH, THAT WORKS A LOT >> SET A STYLE PALLET IN THERE, THEN WE KNOW IT'S GOING TO IMPORT DESIGN WELL FOR US. ANOTHER STYLE PALLET THAT WE CAN IMPORT AND THEN WE CAN, WHAT IS IT, TRANSLATE. >> IT OVERRIDES, YEAH, IN YOUR END DESIGN FILE THEN IF 62 YOU HAVE THE SAME STYLES APPLIED, THEN IT AUTOMATICALLY PICKS UP THE STYLES IN END DESIGN. >> MAKES IT SIMPLER ALL THE WAY AROUND INSTEAD OF RESTYLING IT. >> BUT YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL TOO WHEN YOU TAKE STUFF FROM WORD TO THE END DESIGN BECAUSE IT BRINGS A LOT OF GARBAGE AND YOU WANT MORE OF A CLEAN, AND THAT CAN CAUSE CONFLICTS TOO. SO SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO START WITH A CLEAN DOCUMENT AND A CLEAN STYLE SHEET ALSO. >> THAT'S KIND OF WHAT -- YEAH. >> AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO. WE STRIP OUT EVERYTHING IN A WORD DOCUMENT, SO IT'S TWICE AS MUCH WORK FOR US. >> TANYA: AND THEN THERE'S ALWAYS THAT CAVEAT FOR THE PERSON WHO IS WRITING TO KEEP IT ACCESSIBLE; RIGHT? SO BACK TO THE TRAINING THING. >> I'VE GOT ANOTHER QUESTION. HOW ARE PEOPLE -- MAYBE OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT MANDATED LIKE WE ARE FOR TRANSLATIONS BUT HOW ARE PEOPLE IF THEY'RE NOT PDF'ING THINGS, HOW ARE THEY MAKING SURE THERE'S NONROMAN FONTS FOR TRANSLATIONS ARE HOLDING TOGETHER? OR ARE YOU GUYS NOT HAVING TO DEAL WITH LANGUAGES LIKE WE ARE? 63 >> WHAT ABOUT THE FLIP SIDE IF YOU TURN EVERYTHING INTO A WEB PAGE, YOU COULD JUST APPLY FREE TOOLS TO TRANSLATE EVERYTHING. >> BUT TO NONROMAN FONTS LIKE RUSSIAN WHERE IT'S FONT SPECIFIC, AND IF THEY DON'T HAVE THAT FONT ON THEIR MACHINE, THEN IT'S GOING TO FALL APART. >> MOST -- I MEAN THIS IS KIND OF A BIT OF A ONE SIZE FITS ALL SOLUTION DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH CONTENT YOU HAVE AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU'VE GOT DOUBLE WIDE CHINESE LIKE THINGS, IF YOU'RE -- FOR WEB STUFF IT'S MOSTLY UTF 8. SO YOU CAN SPECIFY WHAT -- (CAN'T HEAR) >> YEAH, WAS RUSSIAN THE ONLY ONE WE HAVE THAT'S NONROMAN? >> YEAH, VIETNAMESE USES THAT. LIKE WHEN YOU WERE SHOWING BEFORE, THAT'S -- YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO SET THAT. IT'S DOING THE SAME THING. IT'S THE DROP DOWN PICKING THE LANGUAGE OF THE DOCUMENT. I DON'T KNOW HONESTLY WHAT DO YOU DO IF THERE'S MORE THAN ONE LANGUAGE ON THAT DOCUMENT. I DON'T KNOW. >> WE DON'T HAVE -- YEAH, WE DON'T HAVE THAT. YEAH, WE TRANSLATE OUR NECESSARY DOCUMENTS INTO A SPECIFIC LANGUAGE, AND WE'VE GOT FIVE OF THEM NOW THAT THEY NEED TO BE, AND THEY'RE ALL SEPARATE. 64 THEY'RE NOT MIXED IN A DOCUMENT. >> AND I KNOW THAT -- I'M SURE THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE REQUESTS YOU HAVE TO DO IT, BUT I ALSO THINK IN THE LEGISLATURE RIGHT NOW THERE'S A PULL TO MAKE THE OFFICIAL STATE LANGUAGE ENGLISH, AND IT WOULD BASICALLY SAY WE DON'T HAVE TO PRODUCE EVERYTHING IN ANY OTHER LANGUAGE. WHAT IF WE WERE TO INSTEAD OFFER FREE SOLUTIONS WHERE WE WOULD SAY THEY COULD OFFER TRANSLATIONS FOR FREE, WE JUST WOULDN'T HAVE INCORPORATE IT IN EVERYTHING WE DO. I THINK THERE'S DIFFERENT WAYS TO DO STUFF YOU JUST HAVE TO BE ONE TO ADVOCATE FOR IT AS EXPERTS IN THESE KIND OF AREAS. >> TANYA: THANKS. >> I HAD A QUESTION FOR THE END DESIGN USERS. A FRIEND OF MINE AT MET COUNCIL WAS USING CS 4 END DESIGN, AND HE SAID THAT NO MATTER HOW WELL YOU SET THE THING UP, ONCE YOU KICKED IT OUT TO PDF IT WOULD DROP A LOT OF THE TAGS AND HEADINGS AND ALT TAGS KIND OF RANDOMLY DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS. ANYBODY KNOW IF THAT PROBLEM WENT AWAY IN FIVE? >> WE'VE NEVER HAD FOUR SO -- >> WE NEVER HAD FOUR. WE WENT FROM THREE TO FIVE. >> WE HAVE NOT NOTICED THAT IN FIVE. 65 HAVE YOU? >> NO, I HAVEN'T EITHER. >> WE NEVER HAD FOUR, SO WE CAN'T HELP YOU THERE. WE WENT FROM THREE TO FIVE. >> IF YOU HAVEN'T RUN INTO IT AS A PROBLEM, THEN -- >> THEY CLEARED UP A LOT OF THE STUFF IN FIVE SO... >> I DO HAVE A QUESTION. IF THIS WAS TO GO TO WORD VERSUS PDF, WHAT ABOUT THOSE DOCUMENTS WHERE THERE'S A COMBINED EXCEL FILE? WHAT ELSE WERE YOU SAYING? JPEG? HOW DOES THAT WORK IN A WORD FILE FOR ACCESSIBILITY? >> MOSTLY WHAT HAPPENS IN MY EXPERIENCE IS WHEN YOU CONVERT -- WHEN YOU GO TO CONVERT THE WORD FILE TO THE PDF, IT JUST -- YOUR TAB ORDER IS WHAT YOU USUALLY END UP HAVING TO FIX, SO THERE'S REALLY NOT A LOT OF DEFERENCE. TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I DON'T REALLY DO ACCESSIBILITY CHECKS. IS THAT NEW IN 7 OR 10? I DON'T EVEN KNOW OR WORD. >> IT'S BEEN THERE A LONG TIME. >> BUT IN 7 OR 3? WAS IT AVAILABLE IN 2007? >> THIS IS JAMIE SPEAKING. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE 66 ACCESSIBILITY CHECKER, AND THAT'S AVAILABLE IN MICROSOFT WORD 2010. >> SO THAT'S THE FIRST EDITION WHERE THAT'S GOING TO BE AVAILABLE OR -- >> JAMIE: YES, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ACCESSIBILITY IN WORD, IT'S 2010. NOW, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IN ACROBAT OR EVEN ACROBAT PROFESSIONAL, IT'S BEEN THERE FOR A WHILE. >> YEAH, I'D SAY -- >> JAMIE: BUT IN WORD SPECIFICALLY IT'S IN 2010. >> THANKS, JAMIE. >> CHRIS. >> JUST A QUICK QUESTION. CHRIS FROM DEED. I'M CURIOUS FROM THE STATE LEVEL AGENCIES IF YOU'VE THOUGHT ABOUT WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO SYSTEMATIZE ACCESSIBILITY CHECKING FOR DOCUMENTS. IS THERE A -- FOR INSTANCE, IS THERE GOING TO BE A CORNER OFFICE POLICY COMING DOWN FROM YOUR COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE TO YOUR VARYING DIRECTORS AND OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT THAT SAYS AS OF DATE CERTAIN ON THE CALENDAR YOUR ADMIN STAFF HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO CREATE THESE DOCUMENTS AS OF DATE CERTAIN ON THE CALENDAR. YOU HAVE TO IMPLEMENT THESE THINGS. YOU WILL HAVE THIS LEVEL OF TRAINING. 67 YOU'LL HAVE THESE CERTAIN TOOLS. WILL YOU HAVE PEOPLE ON STAFF THAT CAN DO A SYSTEMATIZED CHECK WHETHER IT'S HIGH PRIORITY OR RANDOMIZED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT WITH JAWS OR ANY OTHER ADAPTIVE TECHNOLOGY SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE WHETHER THE STUFF YOU'RE CREATING IS ACCESSIBLE. OUR EXPERIENCE IN DOING SOME EXPERIMENTS RIGHT NOW IS THAT WE CAN TAKE PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING VISUALLY, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN TAKE A DOCUMENT THAT WE'VE SET UP IN WORD, AND WE CAN HAVE GONE THROUGH IT VERY CAREFULLY TO HAVE MADE IT AN ACCESSIBLE DOCUMENT USING STYLES AND THE TAGS AND EVERY OTHER THING AND THINK IT WORKS, AND IT DOESN'T. AND WE DON'T KNOW IT UNTIL SOMEONE TRIES TO READ IT WITH JAWS, AND WE GOT TO GO BACK AND FIGURE OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM IS. SO I'M CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT -- FROM AN INFRASTRUCTURE STANDPOINT WHAT PEOPLE AT OTHER AGENCIES ARE DOING OR SETTING UP OR WHAT PROVISIONS THEY'RE MAKING TO ACTUALLY MAKE IT HAPPEN, TO CHECK IT, TO HAVE THE TOOLS AT YOUR DISPOSAL TO KNOW THAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY DOING IT RIGHT. >> AT MNDOT, WHAT'S THAT GROUP CALLED THAT PEOPLE DO THE WORD PROCESSING? >> OH, YEAH, IT'S PUBLISHING AND DESIGN. OUR BABY STEP RIGHT NOW IS THAT OUR WORD PROCESSING 68 GROUP IS GOING THROUGH PRETTY EXTENSIVE TRAINING IN MAKING WORD DOCUMENTS ACCESSIBLE, SO THAT'S SORT OF THE FIRST STEP. AS FAR AS A SYSTEMATIC WAY TO CHECK THINGS RIGHT NOW, IT'S PRETTY INFORMAL. IT'S MOSTLY ME, AND WE NEED TO FORMALIZE THAT, AND WE KNOW IT. WE JUST HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IT. BUT THE FIRST STEP IS GETTING RESOURCES SO THAT IF I SAY TO SOMEONE, YOUR DOCUMENT NEEDS TO BE ACCESSIBLE, I CAN AT LEAST TELL THEM HOW TO DO IT OR GET THE RESOURCE TO DO IT, AND WHEN FRANK WHO WAS SITTING NEXT TO YOU EARLIER IS THE PERSON IN OUR AGENCY WHO IS WORKING ON THAT CURRICULUM. SO THAT'S OUR BABY STEP. WE NEED TO DO A LOT MORE, A LOT MORE. THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I'M INTERESTED IN IN THE GUIDANCE YOU'RE WORKING ON AS FAR AS KIND OF AN IMPLEMENTATION TEMPLATE. >> TANYA: THAT'S EXACTLY THE TYPE OF THINGS THAT I WAS THINKING, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO SAY WHAT YOU SHOULD DO. IT'S LIKE YOU NEED TO SET UP A TEAM TO FIGURE OUT THESE THINGS, AND YOU'RE GOING TO DECIDE AT THE AGENCY LEVEL BECAUSE IN TALKING TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT AGENCIES, THEY HAVE DIFFERENT SETUPS. 69 ORGANIZATIONS DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY IN DIFFERENT AGENCIES. SO IT'S NOT REALLY WISE TO TELL THEM HOW TO DO IT, BUT IT'S TELLING THEM WHAT THINGS TO THINK ABOUT AND FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIGURE YOUR OWN AGENCY LEVEL POLICIES AROUND IT. >> YEAH, I THINK IT'S INFORMATIVE, THOUGH, IF FOLKS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF DOING IT AND THEY CAN USE INTERSECT OR OET AS A WAY TO CONTRIBUTE HOW THEY'RE GOING ABOUT THINGS AND OTHER PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT IT. >> HOW COME THE STATE COULDN'T HYPOTHETICALLY SET UP A CLEARING HOUSE AND ALSO YOU WOULDN'T -- BECAUSE IT'S LIKE WHEN HENRY FORD PUT TOGETHER THE ASSEMBLY LINE, PEOPLE GET EFFICIENT WHEN THEY DO THINGS OVER AND OVER. SO IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CENTRALIZING RESOURCES UNDER OET ANYWAY, SEND IT TO THE PEOPLE AND THAT'S WHAT THEY DO ALL DAY. YOUR FINAL VERSION HAS COME BACK AND YOU KNOW IT'S BEEN STAMPED AND CERTIFIED. >> EXCEPT FOR -- AND THAT SOUNDS GREAT AND I'M WITH YOU ON PUBLIC POLICY AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION, BUT AND ALSO TAKING INTO ACCOUNT EFFICIENCY COST. BUT WHAT I DISCOVERED IT SEEMED PRETTY LOGICAL TO ME BUT I HAVE LEARNED THAT AGENCIES DON'T WANT OET TO BE IN CHARGE AND TO RUN STUFF, SO THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS. 70 >> I JUST THINK THAT'S ALMOST LIKE COULD BE A SERVICE VERSUS TRYING TO CONTROL SOMETHING WHICH TO ME IS DIFFERENT. >> TANYA: YEAH, I MEAN OKAY, PERSPECTIVE BUT -- >> WE SELL -- POLICIES AND PROCEDURES ARE HARD TO SELL. SERVICES ARE EASY TO SELL IF THEY'RE ALL CORRECT AND THEY OFFER ADDED VALUE. >> TANYA: I CAN SEE YOUR COMMENTS, BUT I'M JUST SAYING THAT'S HOW IT IS. IT MAKES SENSE TO ME TOO. >> WE HAVE THE SAME ISSUE. >> TANYA: AND WE'LL SEE HOW THINGS SHAKE OUT, YOU KNOW. JENNIFER. >> I'M FROM DHS AND FROM THE OFFICE OF OPPORTUNITY HAVE THE SAME SORT OF ISSUES >> TALK LOUDER. >> SURE. WE HAVE A COMMUNICATIONS LIAISON IN OUR DEPARTMENT, AND EVERYTHING GOES THROUGH HER, BUT THEY'RE SO OVERLOADED THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO DO IT, SO WHAT WE PROPOSED TO OUR COMMISSIONER IS THAT EACH AREA, EACH BUSINESS AREA HAS A TECHNOLOGY LIAISON WHO IS TRAINED WHO KNOWS WHAT THE STANDARDS ARE, HOW WORD DOCUMENTS. IF ANYBODY HAS QUESTIONS JUST INFORMAL TRAINING, THEY GO TO THAT PERSON AND THAT WAY WE'RE IN HOUSE. 71 WE CAN SPEED UP WHATEVER WE DO RIGHT NOW. I'M NOT SENDING AN E-MAIL TO SOMEONE AND SAYING PUT ME ON THE QUEUE. >> TANYA: THAT'S A GREAT OPTION AND STRATEGY ESPECIALLY WITH -- I MEAN ESSENTIALLY EVERYBODY SHOULD LEARN THESE BASIC WORD KIND OF OFFICE CONCEPTS, AND THAT WILL REALLY HELP WITH THE COG SO TO SAY >> AND BUILD ACCOUNTABILITY WITH THE SYSTEM AS WE SAY THIS AREA, THIS UNIT IS RESPONSIBLE TO THIS PERSON AND IF WE HAVE A PROBLEM, WE GO AND ADDRESS THAT PROBLEM. >> TANYA: YEAH. AND THERE'S PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, KIND OF COEXISTING BENEFITS TO SPEAK TO THE ACCESSIBILITY THAT HAS TO DO WITH DOCUMENT PRODUCTION AND SO IN GENERAL STREAM -- MAKING IT MORE MANAGEABLE AND BUILDING ACCESSIBILITY WITH THAT, BUT I CAN SEE ALL THE OTHER BENEFITS TOO. THAT'S -- I'M HEARING LIKE THAT ADVISORY GROUP THAT WE PUT TOGETHER SHOULD HAVE THESE BEST PRACTICES WITH IT TOO. SO ARE THERE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? >> I THINK I MENTIONED MY CURRENT THINKING NOW AT DNR KIND OF WHAT DHS HAS. WE ALREADY HAVE A GROUP WE CALL THE WEB LIAISON TOO THAT I MEET WITH WEEKLY. SO I'M THINKING EACH ONE OF THEM, I'M GOING TO ASK EACH 72 DIVISION FOR AN ACCESSIBILITY REPRESENTATIVE, AND IT WILL PROBABLY BE ONE OF THESE LIAISONS BECAUSE IT'S JUST A SKILL THEY ALREADY HAVE AND THEY UNDERSTAND INHERENTLY SO THEY'LL BE THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR CHECKING ALL THE STUFF THAT COMES OUT OF THEIR DIVISION AND PUSHING THAT KNOWLEDGE DOWN INTO THE AGENCY. WE DON'T HAVE A CENTRAL PUBLISHING PLACE OTHER THAN END DESIGN DOCUMENTS THAT COME OUT OF GRAPHICS. ALL THE CONTENT IS KIND OF GENERATED ORGANICALLY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE AGENCY, SO IT'S GOING TO FUNNEL INTO THOSE PEOPLE THAT WILL HAVE THE TRAINING AND KNOWLEDGE, AND THEY WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING SURE OTHERS IN THEIR DIVISION UNDERSTAND IT. SO THAT'S KIND OF THE APPROACH WE'RE GOING TO TAKE. WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO FOR AN OFFICIAL POLICY OR ANYTHING. IT SEEMS THAT WE COULD PROBABLY GET AWAY WITH JUST WEB TEAM SAYING THIS IS THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE, AND THAT WILL PROBABLY WORK BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN REJECTING PDF'S FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW IF THEY DON'T HAVE META DATA. SO THIS WILL BE JUST ANOTHER STEP ON TOP OF THAT I THINK. >> AND COLETTE JOHNSON IS NOT HERE FROM MMD, BUT WHAT THEY DO IS THEY BASICALLY HEARD A LITTLE UNIT OF A COUPLE PEOPLE HAVE JAWS AND OTHER DIFFERENT 73 ACCESSIBILITY TESTING. THEY'VE BEEN TRAINED. THEY'RE SKILLED. SHE'S TRAINED HER AGENCY ON WORD DOCUMENTS AND PDF'S, KIND OF GENERAL STUFF WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE AN AGENCY POLICY I GUESS THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY CREATES THEIR DOCUMENT IN WORD OR WHATEVER, SOMEWHAT BASIC AND APPLIES THESE STYLES AND WHATNOT, AND THEY ALL HAVE TO BE TRAINED, AND THEY SEND IT TO HER OFFICE WHO HAS THE ACROBAT PRO, AND THAT'S KIND OF HOW THEY MANAGE THE PROCESS AT LEAST FOR THE WEB, THE STUFF THAT GOES ON THE WEB. SO THAT'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE. CHRIS. >> CHRIS: YEAH. AND WHAT SHE DOES IS THEY MAKE IT MANDATORY FOR THEIR ADMIN FOLKS TO CREATE AN ACCESSIBLE WEB VERSION AND THEY'LL HAVE SOME SPECIALISTS FLIP IT OVER AND CREATE PDF'S, BUT IF THE WORD VERSION IS NOT ACCESSIBLE, THEY KICK IT BACK AND MAKE THEM FIX IT. IF THEY DON'T KNOW HOW, THEY'LL GIVE THEM THE BACKGROUND, YOU KNOW, AND SAY -- THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO LEARN THIS AND THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GOING TO LEARN IT IS DO IT YOURSELF. >> TANYA: AND IN FACT WE EVEN HAD SOME SPECIAL INDIVIDUAL TRAINING WITH SOME PEOPLE AT SWIFT, AND AT FIRST IT WAS KIND OF CONTENTIOUS IN A SENSE, BUT BEST WE 74 JUST HAD SOME QUICK LEARNING. IT WAS EASY. THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN ONE PERSON I CAN THINK OF, THEY FELT GOOD BECAUSE THEY FELT THEY WERE -- THEY HAD ADVANCED SKILLS. I MEAN THEY LEARNED ACCESSIBILITY, BUT THEY LEARNED HOW TO USE THEIR TOOLS MUCH BETTER LIKE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, SEAN. SO IT JUST SOMETIMES TAKES A WHILE. PEOPLE HAVE HABITS, AND WE DO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT AT THE AGENCY LEVEL HOW TO ORGANIZE AND MANAGE IT, SOME TYPE OF PROCESS AROUND IT. BUT YEAH, MAYBE IT HAS TO BE MANDATED. DEPENDS ON THE AGENCY CULTURE. MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A POLICY LIKE JED IS TRYING TO APPROACH. ALL RIGHT. YEAH, KAY. >> AND I THINK SOMETIMES KIND OF TYING INTO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING, YOU HAVE TO MAKE SOME TOUGH DECISIONS AND BE WILLING TO BE A LITTLE UNPOPULAR. WE HAD A DOCUMENT THE OTHER DAY THAT -- OF ALL THINGS WAS A DOCUMENT ABOUT PLANNING FOR PEDESTRIAN FACILITIES THAT WAS DONE SOME TIME AGO AND IN DESIGN AND POSTED ON THE WEB. 75 IT'S TOTALLY INACCESSIBLE, AND IT WILL BE QUITE DIFFICULT TO MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE, AND THE DECISION WE'VE MADE IN THE MEANTIME IS BETTER NOT TO HAVE -- ESPECIALLY A DOCUMENT LIKE THAT, IT'S BETTER TO TAKE IT OFF COMPLETELY THAN TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S NOT ACCESSIBLE, SO IT'S GONE UNTIL WE CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO, AND THAT'S NOT A PARTICULARLY POPULAR PLACE TO BE COMING FROM. BUT SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO DO THAT. >> TANYA: GOOD POINT. I ALSO REMEMBERED THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHY DO AGENCIES USE PDF AT ALL. SORRY, I JUST THOUGHT OF IT. AND WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM SEVERAL AGENCIES THAT WHILE THEIR COMMISSIONERS ARE -- THEIR ATTORNEYS WANT THESE SIGNED SIGNATURE DOCUMENTS OUT THERE, AND THAT'S IT. I MEAN AND SO THAT SOMETIMES OVERRIDES IT, SO IT SEEMS LIKE AN EDUCATING PROCESS OR IT NEEDS TO BE COMMUNICATED FROM OET, WHICH BY THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO BE HAVING THAT FROM THE LEADERSHIP. IT WILL BE COMING OUT. >> WHAT WE DO WITH THE SIGNED THING AND IT'S EXTRA WORK BECAUSE IF THEY ARE INSISTENT THEY WANT THE SIGNED COPY, WE JUST POST TWO OF THEM. WE POST A SIGNED PDF AND WE POST A WORD DOCUMENT. 76 >> THIS IS JAMIE. THIS IS JAMIE SPEAKING, AND ONE OF THE DRAWBACKS ABOUT HAVING TWO DIFFERENT DOCUMENTS IS EVEN IF IT IS IN HTML OR EVEN IF IT IS IN WORD IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A -- IF ONE OF THOSE CHANGES OR GETS UPDATED, THE OTHER ONE MIGHT GET LOST. >> YEP. >> JAMIE: SO THAT'S ONE DISADVANTAGE OF HAVING TWO DOCUMENTS, SO YOU NEED TO KEEP TRACK OF BOTH DOCUMENTS NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. AND THEN WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES THAT THE STATE HAS ADOPTED DOES ACTUALLY HAVE A SPECIFIC LIKE CAVEAT, AND IT DOES ACTUALLY HAVE A SECTION THAT SAYS SPECIFICALLY THIS SITUATION WHERE THERE'S LEGACY DOCUMENTS OR THERE'S DOCUMENTS THAT THE GOVERNMENT ABSOLUTELY INSISTS HAVE TO HAVE -- BE IN PDF. NOW, THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE ACCESSIBLE, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DO NEED TO DO IS ON THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT RIGHT OFF THE BAT THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ACCESSIBLE HYPERLINK TO AN HTML DOCUMENT THAT IS ACCESSIBLE AND IS ONLY -- AND YOU CAN ONLY GET TO THAT LINK OR THAT PDF LINK BY -- OR BY GOING TO THAT DOCUMENT, OR THERE ARE SEVERAL -- TWO OTHER SCENARIOS YOU COULD HAVE AS WELL, BUT THAT'S ONE OF THE WORK-AROUNDS, BUT THERE ARE SOME CAVEATS BECAUSE -- LIKE 77 I SAID, BUT WE DO NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DOCUMENTS AT ALL POSSIBLE ARE ACCESSIBLE. THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT SAYS. ALL DOCUMENTS NEED TO BE ACCESSIBLE, BUT THEY DO REALIZE THAT THERE ARE THOSE EXCEPTIONS LIKE THE PDF THING. OKAY. SORRY. >> THANK YOU. >> IS THERE A -- I KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT SCREEN READERS JUST LIKE THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT PROGRAMS TO DESIGN SOMETHING. IS THERE A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SCREEN READER THAT WE NEED TO MEET THAT CRITERIA? I MEAN JAWS, WHAT IS THE MOST RECENT JAWS, JAWS 12 VERSUS WHATEVER. >> TANYA: REMEMBER WHAT OUR INSTRUCTOR SAID IN HER CLASS LAST WEEK? SHE SAID THAT NOT ALL SCREEN READERS WERE CREATED EQUAL AND JAWS IS MOST SOPHISTICATED >> SO WHAT IS THE FEDERAL REQUIREMENT, THOUGH? >> TANYA: IT'S NOT TECHNOLOGY SPECIFIC. >> JAMIE: THIS IS JAMIE AGAIN. HTML IS VERY MUCH -- STANDARDS ARE VERY MUCH SO IN THE WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES, SO YOU WOULD USE THOSE. 78 >> OKAY. BUT OUR DOCUMENTS ARE -- YEAH, OUR DOCUMENTS -- MOST OF OUR DOCUMENTS ARE -- COMING OUT OF GRAPHICS ARE PDF BECAUSE OF THE NEEDS FOR THEM TO HOLD THEIR LOOK AS A BROCHURE OR WHATEVER THAT THE COUNTY HAS PRINTED OUT. SO IF WE ARE MAKING THEM ACCESSIBLE AND WE ARE CHECKING THEM AGAINST A JAWS READER, HAVE WE DONE DUE DILIGENCE, OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE WE SHOULD BE CHECKING THEM AGAINST? >> JAMIE: THIS IS JAMIE AGAIN. THERE IS -- THANKFULLY SHOULD BE COMING OUT IN THE NEXT YEAR, NOT SOON ENOUGH FOR OUR NEEDS, BUT IN THE NEXT YEAR AN ACTUAL PDF ISO, INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS ORGANIZATION, ACTUAL COMING OUT WITH WHAT EQUALS A PDF ACCESSIBILITY. NOW, IT'S NOT -- LIKE I SAID, IT'S IN A YEAR, SO WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT TO SEE, BUT AT THAT TIME WE WILL ACTUALLY HAVE GUIDELINES AS TO WHAT TO REACH FOR AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. >> OKAY. THANKS. >> JAMIE: BUT LIKE I SAID, THAT'S A YEAR AWAY, SO -- BUT THE OTHER THING TO WARN YOU ABOUT IF YOU ARE -- THERE'S OTHER THINGS -- WHENEVER YOU'RE DOING ACCESSIBILITY TESTING OR CHECKING, IT'S ALWAYS VERY BEST 79 PRACTICES TO NOT JUST RELY ON ONE TYPE OF ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY. IT'S ALWAYS BETTER TO TRY TWO JUST SO THAT YOU CAN BUILD SOMETHING TO JUST ONE ENTITY LIKE INTERNET EXPLORER 6, I'M PRETTY SURE YOU HAD THAT -- KNOW THAT ERA OF YOUR WE -- THIS PAGE WILL ONLY DISPLAY IN INTERNET EXPLORER 6, NO OTHER THING WHATSOEVER. YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE THAT BE IN TERMS OF ACCESSIBILITY. SO THAT'S WHY IT'S -- THAT'S WHY THERE'S THE STANDARDS FOR HTML NOW OR FLASH OR WHAT HAVE YOU BY THE WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES. BUT IN TERMS OF FOR RIGHT NOW LIKE PDF'S, TRY TO USE MORE THAN ONE ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY. >> OKAY. IS THERE SOME PLACE OUT ON THE WEB THAT WE CAN GO THAT WE CAN CHECK A DOCUMENT? WASN'T SHE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT LAST WEEK AT OUR CLASS, JAMIE, THAT THERE'S SOME PLACE WE CAN GO THAT IS FREE FOR A LITTLE WHILE TO CHECK SOMETHING? >> JAMIE: OH, THERE'S TONS OF DIFFERENT -- NOT TONS. I SHOULDN'T SAY TONS. THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT THINGS YOU CAN USE LIKE THUNDER, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH IS AN ALTERNATIVE. >> I'M SORRY. WHAT? >> THUNDER. 80 >> JAMIE: AND THEN YOU CAN ALSO TEST IT, WHICH IS FREE IN OPEN SOURCE AND YOU CAN USE IT ON WINDOWS OPERATING SYSTEM, SO THAT'S ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE. THERE'S GREEN ACCESS TO GO, BUT THAT'S STRICTLY FOR THE WEB, SO THUNDER WOULD BE A BETTER CHOICE. >> OKAY. >> JAMIE: NOW, THERE'S OTHER ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY YOU CAN USE AS WELL TO TEST. AND ONE THING THAT WASN'T BROUGHT UP TODAY IN TERMS OF PDF ACCESSIBILITY BUT COLORS AND SO ON, COLOR OPTIONS, BUT LIKE I SAID, JUST TRY TO FOLLOW AS MUCH AS YOU CAN WITH WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES IN TERMS OF VISUALIZING THIS IS A WEB DOCUMENT, BUT YOU STILL IN THE WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY WE'VE GOT GOING YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE HEADERS. >> RIGHT. >> HEADINGS I SHOULD SAY, NOT HEADERS. HEADINGS AND APPLY THAT TO YOUR PDF. TRY TO CONCEPTUALIZE IT THAT WAY. SO YOU HAVE THOSE COLOR GUIDELINES ON IN THE WEB CONTENT ACCESSIBILITY GUIDELINES. TRY APPLYING THOSE TO YOUR PDF DOCUMENT, FOR EXAMPLE. >> SURE. OKAY. >> JAMIE: FOR HIGH VISIBILITY AND STUFF LIKE THAT, SO 81 TRY -- I KNOW IT'S A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO CONCEPTUALIZE ALL THE TIME BUT THINK AS MUCH -- AT LEAST UNTIL THE PDF STANDARDS COME OUT. >> YEAH. OKAY. >> JOHN: IT'S JUST AFTER FOUR, AND I WANT TO RESPECT PEOPLE'S TIME AND I WANT TO THANK TANYA AND JAMIE AND FOR THE PRESENTATION. I REALLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU. [APPLAUSE] GREAT DISCUSSION. OUR NEXT MEETING IS MAY 10. SO LOOK FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THAT AS THAT GETS CLOSER, AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE WARMER BY THEN. >> HOPEFULLY, OH, MY GOODNESS. >> JOHN: AND LOOK FOR THE TREATS ON THE WAY OUT. I'M SURE THERE'S WATER AND COOKIES LEFT. >> TANYA: YEP, THE PRESENTATION WILL BE ON -- >> JOHN: YEAH, WE'LL PUT THIS ON THE INTERSECT LINKED IN GROUP OR MAYBE BOTH. I'LL ASK MOLLY. WE'LL SEND OUT A NOTE. >> THANK YOU. 82 [ THIS TEXT IS BEING PROVIDED IN A ROUGH-DRAFT FORMAT. COMMUNICATION ACCESS REALTIME TRANSLATION (CART) IS PROVIDED IN ORDER TO FACILITATE COMMUNICATION ACCESSIBILITY AND MAY NOT BE A TOTALLY VERBATIM RECORD OF THE PROCEEDINGS. ]